Do you believe in the Bible?

[artisan00]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

yea ^^ i dont like that

dont like what, if you dont believein teh stuff, then you dont believe in christianity (or any other religion if you have different book, for that matter)
if you take religion, and subtract all the stories and beliefs, then what you end up with is morality, give or take...which is definitley a good thing, but its not religion.

not exactly. i dont like that you have to believe it first, then its true

then there is the story of how baby moses survived the pharoh's killing of all baby males... i dont like that either.

too many inconsistencies :dunno

um, its not only true if you believe it, assuming you belive its true, then it IS true, it doesnt just become true... im not sure what you mean there.

as far as moses etc.. the killing of the males was the 'hebrew' males - when he was found in the basket or whataver by pharoh's daughter, he was raised as an egyptian. so thats why he wasnt killed.

 

[Jeth]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

I don't beleive in the Bible or in God, you could call me an Atheist...

I have alot of views on why not to beleive in the Bible.. One is that, if God chooses paths for everyone, why does he give people paths to commit murder etc, condemning them to hell? Obviously God doesn't love all his people...

if you really want to know the answer (or answers) to that question, there are books upon books written just about that. but anyway, who says paths are chosen for everyone? why do you make that assumption?

I doubt all the priests who say this haven't done their fair share of reading up on the subject.

 

[lemon]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

yea ^^ i dont like that

dont like what, if you dont believein teh stuff, then you dont believe in christianity (or any other religion if you have different book, for that matter)
if you take religion, and subtract all the stories and beliefs, then what you end up with is morality, give or take...which is definitley a good thing, but its not religion.

not exactly. i dont like that you have to believe it first, then its true

then there is the story of how baby moses survived the pharoh's killing of all baby males... i dont like that either.

too many inconsistencies :dunno

um, its not only true if you believe it, assuming you belive its true, then it IS true, it doesnt just become true... im not sure what you mean there.

as far as moses etc.. the killing of the males was the 'hebrew' males - when he was found in the basket or whataver by pharoh's daughter, he was raised as an egyptian. so thats why he wasnt killed.

ok, you just confused me there :dunno

 

[AtlanticBlue99]

it doesnt take reading up to scare people into a cult following that evolved into one of the largest major religions.

organized religion is full of flaws imo, so i dissagree with you on this point jeth

 

[artisan00]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

I don't beleive in the Bible or in God, you could call me an Atheist...

I have alot of views on why not to beleive in the Bible.. One is that, if God chooses paths for everyone, why does he give people paths to commit murder etc, condemning them to hell? Obviously God doesn't love all his people...

if you really want to know the answer (or answers) to that question, there are books upon books written just about that. but anyway, who says paths are chosen for everyone? why do you make that assumption?

I doubt all the priests who say this haven't done their fair share of reading up on the subject.

i dont assume anything about priests, but then again im not christian.
but either way, especially in your case, you should do your own research and not just hear what a priest says and decide opnins based on that...personally, i am for organized rel., but at the same time have no issue with 'predetermination'. reason being, i have studied enough philosphy to be able to reconcile the idea with free choice. (yes, it is possible)

edit: while im here, may as well explain what i just said... basically, one issue comes from the idea that god knows everything, so if god 'knows' what your fate is, where is your choice? one way to explain this is the following - that issue assumes god percieves as we do. which is not necessarily true. imagine you are an ant, walking on a wire - you only see one direction, and you only see where you are at the time, and a limited amount into the distance. but if you or I see that wire, we see the whole thing.
while that analogy is not great, ill explain. we see time in our own way. we see limitedly into the future. we can choose what we do, and anticipate what will happen. now imagine you are 'outside' the time we see. you would see time as we see length, width, and depth. so in our mode of existnece, we are in fact 'choosing' but at the same time, a god that lives outside time can see the past present and future at the same time (same as we see 3 dimensions, he could see 4, for example) and 'know' what we will choose before we percieve choosing it.

im not sure if that makes sense, but its a well written about idea, so im probably not the best person to explain it but you hoepfully see the basic idea im tryin to say...

 

[AtlanticBlue99]

and that is where calvinists and presbytarians come into play with predestination. beleiving god is all-knowing sets the stage for them to live "pure" lives and hope that god has chosen a heavenly path for them. i know many presby's and a calvinist and they are all very similar with their faiths. i just dont agree with the congregational attraction to worship and a waste productive time and money. yea, you can be going to church with your family, but i would rather be home with my family or someplace i enjoy. i went to church when i was younger and hated going, but i do believe in a higher power of some sort. basically, i break one major rule in the bible- not sharing the word of god through fellowship. i dont believe in hanging out and worshiping and paying a tax-exempt organization and wasting my otherwise useful time...

 

[IntruderLS1]

Jesus taugt us not to squabble over the details. Weather you look at him as the Son of God, a holy prophet, a random guy who fooled a lot of people, or a myth, His teaching hold an intrinsic wisdom that cannot be denied though the ages.

To be saved you do not need to 'follow all the rules.' To be saved you don't need to be Catholic, or Prodestant, or Muslim. You don't even have to be good.

To be saved, all you have to do is accept the Word into your life, accept your forgivness, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord.

Everything else is just details. Choose whichever one fits you best, or chose to be non-denominational (like me).

I saw a bumber sticker once that I'll never forget. It said:

"If you choose to believe there is no God, you had BETTER BE RIGHT."

What do you have to lose?

 

[Ryum]

I pretty much have the same views as intruder..

Non-denominational

I just have an idea, when I realize something I do or do not agree with in my faith I can change and adapt to something I can believe in again

There will never be a church for my type of Christianity and that's cool with me

if the majority of churches I have been to genuinely reflect the way churches really are these days all over the US maybe even the world then I actually oppose churches
Or at least the current incarnations

 

[Phreaked]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

Jesus taugt us not to squabble over the details. Weather you look at him as the Son of God, a holy prophet, a random guy who fooled a lot of people, or a myth, His teaching hold an intrinsic wisdom that cannot be denied though the ages.

To be saved you do not need to 'follow all the rules.' To be saved you don't need to be Catholic, or Prodestant, or Muslim. You don't even have to be good.

To be saved, all you have to do is accept the Word into your life, accept your forgivness, and confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord.

Everything else is just details. Choose whichever one fits you best, or chose to be non-denominational (like me).

I saw a bumber sticker once that I'll never forget. It said:

"If you choose to believe there is no God, you had BETTER BE RIGHT."

What do you have to lose?

The bible is a great work of fiction....so are almost all holy books, maybe based on actual events but so outlandishly put into mystisim i couldnt whole heartedly believe in any.

Uhhh not quite right, almost all religions say they are the right one and all the others are wrong and worshiping them is a sin. In Chatholisim you have to believe in thier god and ask him for forgivness to be allowed into heaven, basically the same for islam. Ask a strict catholic preist (i have BTW) he'll tell you that unless you give your heart over to christ and god then you'll either burn in hell or spend eternity in purgatory

As for believe there is no god you better be right, which one do you choose, which faith do you believe in? as i said almost all of them make you choose and condemn the rest.

 

[AtlanticBlue99]

which is why i dont actively participate in organized relgion. i may attend church once or twice a year, certainly attend weddings and what not, but there are far too many contradictories out there for me to whole-heartedly accept any form of organized religion.

i do not denounce god, jesus, abraham, or the bible as mythical tall tales, i believe the occurances that are scribed in the bible did occur, based on my research over the years, but the church itself (any and all denominations) vary in level of curruptness, but they all have users and abusers, hipocrites, and evil sitting in and controlling the church environment.

id rather spend my time living my life for the moment and the future, but not the spiritual future. when i die, i will be buried. whether or not i go to the described heaven or hell is up to god, if there is really a heaven or hell. so i try not to bother my time with the issue too often, simply because it is so controversial, it is rare for a group of people to agree on the subject matter at hand

 

[artisan00]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

The bible is a great work of fiction....so are almost all holy books, maybe based on actual events but so outlandishly put into mystisim i couldnt whole heartedly believe in any.

Uhhh not quite right, almost all religions say they are the right one and all the others are wrong and worshiping them is a sin. In Chatholisim you have to believe in thier god and ask him for forgivness to be allowed into heaven, basically the same for islam. Ask a strict catholic preist (i have BTW) he'll tell you that unless you give your heart over to christ and god then you'll either burn in hell or spend eternity in purgatory

As for believe there is no god you better be right, which one do you choose, which faith do you believe in? as i said almost all of them make you choose and condemn the rest.

there are some mistakes here. first of all, saying it is a great work of fiction is your opinion, and not necessarily fact. so dont make statements like that. also, islam (and other middle eastern religions) are not as simple as 'ask for forgiveness and go to heaven'. there is a lot more to them than that.
basically dont take opinions (some of which are incorrect) and state them as fact.

 

[AtlanticBlue99]

im with art. some of the statements were coming on very strong and almost spiteful to incite a debate of fury- my opinion though- so i probably should leave out this first sentence?

and... with islam, acceptance to their heaven involves a pilgrimage to meccah and all sorts of shit. and some religions believe in reencarnation instead of going to heaven. they believe not only that your matter reencarnates with nature, but your spirit does too.

to not piss off other people on such a sensitive subject, a more passive move is required in the discussion...

 

[artisan00]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

which is why i dont actively participate in organized relgion. i may attend church once or twice a year, certainly attend weddings and what not, but there are far too many contradictories out there for me to whole-heartedly accept any form of organized religion.

i do not denounce god, jesus, abraham, or the bible as mythical tall tales, i believe the occurances that are scribed in the bible did occur, based on my research over the years, but the church itself (any and all denominations) vary in level of curruptness, but they all have users and abusers, hipocrites, and evil sitting in and controlling the church environment.

id rather spend my time living my life for the moment and the future, but not the spiritual future. when i die, i will be buried. whether or not i go to the described heaven or hell is up to god, if there is really a heaven or hell. so i try not to bother my time with the issue too often, simply because it is so controversial, it is rare for a group of people to agree on the subject matter at hand

well elaborated. but theres a pattern i see in statements like this (and some others that people have said). basically, it looks like in this thread, most people who disagree are disagreeing because they see controversy and therefore shut it all out. another thing is that it seems to be the popular concensus that religion is all being 'nice' etc, and 'ye shall be saved'. and therefore, people say 'ill just be a good person and it wont matter that i never went to church, mosque, synogogue, whatever. but thats part of the issue. thats not necessarily the right way to interpret the point and definition of religion. it is not just about one's 'self'. i dont know much about the church, but take islam or judaism for a second (and i mean orthodox practices, not the more modern liberal versions of many religions that crop up every day). yes there are the basic concepts of treating your fellow man in a certain way, and respecting others and yourself accordinng to certain standards, but that is only half of the full picture. there is a lot more spiritual practice that most people probably dont even understand but its not just about understanding why all the time. so for example, if you belive in 'some' god, and that you and everone else exists for some type of reason, you think that all there is to living is being nice? in judaism for example, there are over 600 basic rules. some of them are in fact directly related to interpersonal behavior but some of them are more mystical and harder to explain. but if you accept gods existence (and AB, it looks like you do to some extent) then you should be able to understand that there could be more to life than merely 'behaving'. for example, pretend you have a child, and you tell him to clean up his room. a child who may not even understand the concept of why it is good to have a clean room would think "this is stupid, i dont wanna do what he says, im just going to do what i think makes me a good person according to whatever i think they are. and cleaning up my room is pointless so i wont do it". you as the dad know the reason behind your statement, but the kid has no idea. and if you believe that there is a god who exists over you, then it makes sense that there things you would not grasp but at the same time are still worth doing even if you dont know why.
im not sure if this makes any sense, im not trying to come accross as some crazy televangelist missionary, but its hard to explain this stuff...

comments welcome

 

[IntruderLS1]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

The bible is a great work of fiction....so are almost all holy books, maybe based on actual events but so outlandishly put into mystisim i couldnt whole heartedly believe in any.

Uhhh not quite right, almost all religions say they are the right one and all the others are wrong and worshiping them is a sin. In Chatholisim you have to believe in thier god and ask him for forgivness to be allowed into heaven, basically the same for islam. Ask a strict catholic preist (i have BTW) he'll tell you that unless you give your heart over to christ and god then you'll either burn in hell or spend eternity in purgatory

As for believe there is no god you better be right, which one do you choose, which faith do you believe in? as i said almost all of them make you choose and condemn the rest.

Is it just me, or do you challange everything I say? :lol :lol

You are correct in that religious sections will tell you their way is the best. That's because they believe it to be true. But if you do your homework and look into the text, Jesus does teach not to fight over differences, as long as the basics are there.

The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is the same God to Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims. It's the details of how those groups choose to worship that take us appart.

As for what you said about condeming the rest .... My understanding of it is that God is the judge, so let Him figure it out.

 

[AtlanticBlue99]

call it laziness. call it resistence. call it rebellion. call it choice. call it what you will. i do not believe in attending church because i know i do not have to. i do clean my room, i am a neat freak, i wax my car 2x a week lol, but i see no personal or group benefit of me attending churchl. i have spent years of my life debating the entire congregatoinal community and resulted with this: i am a pretty big introvert, and attending a church at a time of inconvenience to me is something i prefer not to do. i do not challenge god, his works, his acts, or those that have acted for him, i respect religions, but i am against organized congregational meetings of worship that include me. it is a selfish perspective, i agree, but after years of debating, i have reached this conclusion. it isnt that i dont like people entirely, i dont want to affiliate myself with the curruptness of the organized religions out there. too much money is being made by churches largely because they are tax exempt. granted, they give back to the community and mission out a ton of resources, but preachers making 6 figures a year to preach and spread the gospel pushes it for me. yes, preachers are smart people with a ton of educational experience, but the amount of money being made by all senior church officials is quite insane.

that is my opinion, and you dont have to agree with me. but that is how i have concluded to not attend church regularly, but still believe in god. if i am breaking some of the rules, so be it. hell, i break laws on a daily basis in our country, mainly because the laws are unjust and in need of cultural update. the church is also in need of a cultural update. newer denominations of protestant churches are much more appealing to me than the catholic churches still around though, but there is little hope that you will see me often at a congregational worship sermon

 

[Phreaked]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

there are some mistakes here. first of all, saying it is a great work of fiction is your opinion, and not necessarily fact. so dont make statements like that. also, islam (and other middle eastern religions) are not as simple as 'ask for forgiveness and go to heaven'. there is a lot more to them than that.
basically dont take opinions (some of which are incorrect) and state them as fact.

You right i over simplified, in a hurry this morning....but most of what i say comes from almost 20 years of religous study, first 10 were roman catholic the remaining have been between islam, buddism, judeaism and more....as for a work of fiction again your right it is my opinion, but the bible is written on opinion and handed down stories, you cannot take something written hundreds of years after the fact as fact implicitly, even the church has admitted that they interpret the bible, although some people take things literally.

I believe someone named jesus lived, was crucified(this happened alot in those days) and such but i also know that some of the stories have next to nothing to do with christianity at all. Noahs ark was a story that predates jesus by 5000 years....it was actually the ancient mesopantmians(*sp?) they had a great flood which destroyed thier civilization, they were living in a giant valley and the valley wall collapesed which allowed for the sea to rush in, it even has a statement about excessive rains, ruins have been found to substantiate this....as for most of the other stories they can all be interpreted in many ways, soddam and gamorrah for instance, people couldnt explain why rocks and fire would rain from the skies in those days (volcano/meteroites) so they attributed it to a vengful god and made the cities seem as sinful to ease thier consious about why things happen, same with storms and such....roman and greeks did the same.

As for the islam thing you absolutly right, they have religous edicts to pray at certain times facing meccah, not mention fasting and bathing rituals even stoning is a edict against sinners. But most religions have these statements, do i need to say salem witch trials where people were burned at the stake, thrown off cliffs and waterboarded at the behest of the church to rid themselves of evil influences. The black death wouldnt have been so bad if people didnt attribute evil/satan with dogs and cats and proclaim it was a sign from god about a peoples sinfulness.

And please when you state that im misstating fact please explain

 

[Phreaked]

Re: RE: Do you believe in the Bible?

Is it just me, or do you challange everything I say? :lol :lol

You are correct in that religious sections will tell you their way is the best. That's because they believe it to be true. But if you do your homework and look into the text, Jesus does teach not to fight over differences, as long as the basics are there.

The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is the same God to Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims. It's the details of how those groups choose to worship that take us appart.

As for what you said about condeming the rest .... My understanding of it is that God is the judge, so let Him figure it out.

Sorry i wasnt challenging your statement, i just picked the most moderate statement and commented on it, otherwise i'd get a little heated about things. And the condeming the rest, not my thoughts on the subject just most religons think and say that. And i think you hit it on the button with they all worship the same god jsut in different ways, and thats what tears them apart, its not the differences though, its when one decides they are the RIGHT and all others are wrong that causes tension, if they could all live and let live it would be soooo great...Jesus had it right but his words are almost always ignored when the rightness of belief comes into play.

I may be wrong but i dont remember Jesus saying eye for an eye but thats attributed to him, i heard a catholic preist say this, he got really pissed at me asking him about it, he couldnt even find the passage where he had supposedly said it and still wouldnt correct himself...this is his quote "i am the representative of god on earth, i say what he wants me to say and who are you to correct him?" That just scares the shit outta me, i wasnt correcting god, which BTW no one can ever talk to (thats in the bible), i was correcting his representative in his stead.....he liked that even less and i havent been back to that congregation and some of the other parisoners changed churches when they heard that argument. This is an example of misinterpretation and how if not corrected can go on to a false statment about the bible. If you want a good read about misinterpretations of religion read http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

I never laughed to hard in my life....thing is he is factually correct, he just takes it in a fucked up context, disregaurding the rest of what follows, most of which contradicts the earlier books

 

[IntruderLS1]

The preacher was incorrect. Eye for an eye is old Testament teaching. Jeasus changed that.

Matthew 5:38-47

An Eye for an Eye
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Blackwater_GT]

I beleive the origional transcripts from those prophets and apostles to be from God and the Son _God. I beleive that some religous leaders and Kings have used the Bible to impose there own wills and belief's about God down to the People that they had power over.

Most of the origional scripturesare still intact and but not all can be read or decrypted.

 

[lemon]

ok, this is a question-wait-for-an-answer-to-continue posting, and assumes you believe in christianity....

did god create everthing?