Do commandments and threats negate free will?

[Greatest I am]

Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.
To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg5UNxOmTIY

 

[Mercury]

This is actually something I have often thought about. "God" is commonly known for being all knowing and all wise ... so then how can "God" test humanity since "God" already knows all outcomes?

Personally, I think that we do have free will and that we are not judged as harshly as the church would like to lead us to believe.

 

[Greatest I am]

This is actually something I have often thought about. "God" is commonly known for being all knowing and all wise ... so then how can "God" test humanity since "God" already knows all outcomes?

Personally, I think that we do have free will and that we are not judged as harshly as the church would like to lead us to believe.

Seems you know scriptures better than believers.
This is not surprising if you know the stats.

This bishop agree with us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg5UNxOmTIY

The Christian hell is one of two things that caused me to reject Christianity. The other thing was blood sacrifice. At first, I still believed in God but I was no longer a Christian. I'm not sure exactly when I stopped believing in God. It just happened over a couple years as I read arguments for and against.

As far as free will, I wonder if we are as free as we like to think. Not that I have anything against freedom. I'm a big fan. But sometimes I think free will may be something of an illusion.

 

[MrHeinz]

When children become adults and make their own decisions they are still held accountable by governments, law enforcement, etc... so when a child becomes an adult it only means they are held accountable by a different authority. Hopefully, they are mature enough to make the right choices.

Commandments, threats, and so on do not negate free will. Free will means choice. Sometimes the choices aren't that great but they are there none the less.

 

[Greatest I am]

The Christian hell is one of two things that caused me to reject Christianity. The other thing was blood sacrifice. At first, I still believed in God but I was no longer a Christian. I'm not sure exactly when I stopped believing in God. It just happened over a couple years as I read arguments for and against.

As far as free will, I wonder if we are as free as we like to think. Not that I have anything against freedom. I'm a big fan. But sometimes I think free will may be something of an illusion.

Not to be simplistic but if you do not have free will and you were not doing your will in responding to the O P,whose will was it?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

When children become adults and make their own decisions they are still held accountable by governments, law enforcement, etc... so when a child becomes an adult it only means they are held accountable by a different authority. Hopefully, they are mature enough to make the right choices.

Commandments, threats, and so on do not negate free will. Free will means choice. Sometimes the choices aren't that great but they are there none the less.

In the case of choosing God and heaven or hell, how many do you think are insane enough to choose hell and is that threat not the trigger what is making up your mind for you?

In the case of God, we are not dealing with full disclosureof anything.
We do not know exactly what heaven and hell are like.

Our first example of God informing us, through Adam and Eve,of the consequences of their actions, was partial and incomplete.

That was for consequences here on earth and he did not eventell them anything of the consequences after death. That is not moral ortruthful.

Do you see that as a lie of omission on God's part?

Adam and Eve were not aware of any but one consequence. Theywere misled.

Count the consequences given in his short list and comparethat short list to the long list of consequences he arbitrarily added on.

Would you threaten your child with one punishment and thengive him 10?
That is what God did.

Note the immorality of God.

Regards
DL

 

[BornReady]

Not to be simplistic but if you do not have free will and you were not doing your will in responding to the O P,whose will was it?

I responded because I decided to. However, my decision is not surprising in the least. Someone who knows me well would say it was a near certainty I would respond. Perhaps someone who knew everything about me would say it wasn't a near certainty. It was an absolute certainty I would respond. If that is the case then my free will to respond was just an illusion.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want. Free will is the ability to want what you want. It's not even clear what that means. Maybe my desires are the deterministic result of my makeup and experiences.

 

[savvy]

I responded because I decided to. However, my decision is not surprising in the least. Someone who knows me well would say it was a near certainty I would respond. Perhaps someone who knew everything about me would say it wasn't a near certainty. It was an absolute certainty I would respond. If that is the case then my free will to respond was just an illusion.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want. Free will is the ability to want what you want. It's not even clear what that means. Maybe my desires are the deterministic result of my makeup and experiences.

According to how the rest of the world defines free will Noun: The ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[af12]

In the case of choosing God and heaven or hell, how many do you think are insane enough to choose hell and is that threat not the trigger what is making up your mind for you?

In the case of God, we are not dealing with full disclosureof anything.
We do not know exactly what heaven and hell are like.Our first example of God informing us, through Adam and Eve,of the consequences of their actions, was partial and incomplete.
That was for consequences here on earth and he did not eventell them anything of the consequences after death. That is not moral ortruthful.
Do you see that as a lie of omission on God's part?
Adam and Eve were not aware of any but one consequence. Theywere misled.
Count the consequences given in his short list and comparethat short list to the long list of consequences he arbitrarily added on.
Would you threaten your child with one punishment and thengive him 10?That is what God did.
Note the immorality of God.

Some people would choose hell over having to submit themselves to God. Just look at atheists they will do anything to deny the existence of God.

The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for the purpose of our existence. We can choose God or not. If we don't choose God then we don't deserve God's protection. Adam and Eve's punishment fit their crimes. Even if God had told them exactly what they were in for I don't believe they would have understood it. People today don't understand the concept of hell fully. I don't think it would do any good to fully explain consequences people will still do what they will do.

The term immoral pertains to human beings, not God.

 

[savvy]

Some people would choose hell over having to submit themselves to God. Just look at atheists they will do anything to deny the existence of God.

The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for the purpose of our existence. We can choose God or not. If we don't choose God then we don't deserve God's protection. Adam and Eve's punishment fit their crimes. Even if God had told them exactly what they were in for I don't believe they would have understood it. People today don't understand the concept of hell fully. I don't think it would do any good to fully explain consequences people will still do what they will do.

The term immoral pertains to human beings, not God.

Funny how people like to make up their own definitions of words to fit what they believe.

mor·al /môrl/Adjective: Concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of HUMAN character.

People that complain about God's character remind me of whiny children who complain about being made to eat their vegetables.

 

[Greatest I am]

I responded because I decided to. However, my decision is not surprising in the least. Someone who knows me well would say it was a near certainty I would respond. Perhaps someone who knew everything about me would say it wasn't a near certainty. It was an absolute certainty I would respond. If that is the case then my free will to respond was just an illusion.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want. Free will is the ability to want what you want. It's not even clear what that means. Maybe my desires are the deterministic result of my makeup and experiences.

They are for sure.
That does not mean that you cannot go against your desires. I am sure you do often. I do.
That is free will.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Some people would choose hell over having to submit themselves to God. Just look at atheists they will do anything to deny the existence of God.

Not being an atheist, I cannot speak for them but most I speak to de not deny God. They just do not accept what their logic and reason tells them is not a proven fact.

Prove God's existence and all will believe.
It is to those who make the claim to prove it.

The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for the purpose of our existence. We can choose God or not.

You may be right and if so, then what is your complaint. A & E chose to be as God. God himself says they succeeded in terms of becomong as God's in knowing good and evil.

Strange that the Jews, the originators of the myth saw Eden as our elevation while Christianity changed it to a fall.
More $$$$$$$ for Christianity in a fall. Hmm.

If we don't choose God then we don't deserve God's protection

A & E chose God and were cursed for it. Hmm.

Adam and Eve's punishment fit their crimes.

E

Then God should have stuck with the punishment he said would be theirs and should not have arbitrarily added on a bunch that no one knew about. That is a lie of omission on his part.

Would you tell your children they were going to be grounded for a day and then ground them for a week?
If not then you are more moral than your God.

Even if God had told them exactly what they were in for I don't believe they would have understood it.

Could they understand death in a world with no death? NO.
Nice try at justifying God's sin of omission and unjust behavior.

People today don't understand the concept of hell fully.

True and thus cannot make an informed choice.

I don't think it would do any good to fully explain consequences people will still do what they will do.

So keeping people in the dark is good. Ok. Immoral but whatever you say.

The term immoral pertains to human beings, not God.

Then the same definition would apply to the term moral and is that why you think God does not have to be moral or act in a moral way?

Regards
DL

 

[MsPoppy]

Hmmm...we have all kinds of laws that govern our exertion or expression of free will, or self will. I want to fly or levitate, but laws of physics say I can't...unless I create or utilize another way to manipulate, maneuver, or utilize within the laws, like airplanes or helium balloons. Those things took time to be created by humans.
I suppose I see free will in the sense of the spirit or soul much like this...there are laws that prevent or confine...unless we somehow transcend or maneuver within them. They are there in place (possibly the ones in debate are outmoded for some), and can't be broken with our present understanding. Perhaps what we percieve as miracles may be coincidences, transcendent accidents, some sort of synchronicity, or intentional forces of coalescing will with something "higher" (for lack of better language)...and that seem to temporarily breech the distance between us and higher places.
Whether we will be spared each others verbage onslaught of what is wrong and right in God's eye...or shed outmoded self imposed/group imposed tapes in the near or distant future really depends on if we can get an idea of what it is like to be free of this fear ridden type of existence. If I can keep a sense of this as a shared dilemna, I am less judgemental of how it poisons us toward each other. One of my closest friends (now passed) used to say that the best use of the will is inward on oneself. And if you don't do something with someone (their total permission and willingness), you do it to them. How true these ring to me, and how short I fall of them even with the purest of intentions.

 

[BornReady]

That does not mean that you cannot go against your desires. I am sure you do often. I do. That is free will.

But do we really go against our desires? It seems to me what really happens is we have conflicting desires and the strongest desire wins. For example, I have the desire to be rich and stealing might accomplish that. But I have an even stronger desire to live in a society where property rights are respected and everyone is treated fairly. So I support laws against stealing and don't steal myself.

I think free will is the ability to choose our desires. And I'm not sure we actually have that. What most of us do have is freedom to some degree, i.e. the ability to act on our desires.

 

[MsPoppy]

I think we can definitely go against our percieved desires and in a totally different direction than usually followed. Why not. Why does it have to be a struggle between two opposites.

 

[BornReady]

I think we can definitely go against our percieved desires and in a totally different direction than usually followed. Why not. Why does it have to be a struggle between two opposites.

I agree. There certainly doesn't have to be a struggle. Sometimes all our desires point in the same direction. In which case it's an easy decision. On the other hand, sometimes we have conflicting desires which make the decision more difficult. But that doesn't mean our decisions aren't deterministic. Someone who knows everything about us (clearly an impossibility) may be able to predict our decisions with 100% accuracy. If that is the case, are we acting from free will or a set of desires programmed into us by our genetic make up and experiences?

In either case, we have freedom if we are able to act on our desires. Or put another way, if we are able to do what we want.

 

[MsPoppy]

Periodically I do something extremely spontaneous, or different from what any of my choices are (usually derived from another source person). I in fact did this just recently. the results were a set of new influences and opportunities that if taking my usual routes, I probably would not have been exposed to. When I do this and it produces results that at first feel alien or uncomfortable, instead of slipping back to comfort, I forge on from there. Sometimes I feel a definite shift.

 

[savvy]

Free will is being able to make choices. I don't think desires have alot to do with it. It is about choice. If a person refuses to choose they have still made a choice, not to choose. Denying this fact is just a way to try and not take any responsibility for anything.

 

[af12]

Free will is being able to make choices. I don't think desires have alot to do with it. It is about choice. If a person refuses to choose they have still made a choice, not to choose. Denying this fact is just a way to try and not take any responsibility for anything.

That is pretty much it. It is amazing the elaborate BS people dream up to fool themselves.