Discussion of the Poverty Line

[Tim]

Do I win anything? And was it hard to admit we are on the same page here? :24:

 

[Springsteen]

I didn't say a person who spends money on drink/drugs is below the poverty line, because clearly they aren't because they still have money. And I'm not saying it's only poor people who buy drink/drugs, rich people do to. What I mean is that person chooses to buy that stuff instead of food/other stuff. Which is why I said a distinguishing point has/had to be made here. But in this example, that's about choices people make rather than being in poverty.

 

[Tim]

I didn't say a person who spends money on drink/drugs is below the poverty line, because clearly they aren't because they still have money. And I'm not saying it's only poor people who buy drink/drugs, rich people do to. What I mean is that person chooses to buy that stuff instead of food/other stuff. Which is why I said a distinguishing point has/had to be made here. But in this example, that's about choices people make rather than being in poverty.

But none of that make's any difference in regards to where the poverty line is.

My whole point was that whenever a topic like this comes up, ie the poor, drugs and alcohol tend to be brought into a discussion when it doesn't even factor in.

Why isn't the topic of drugs and alcohol brought up when we are determining what it is to be considered rich?

 

[Springsteen]

No I agree it shouldn't with the main debate of where the poverty line is, I agree. But I was merely using it as a reference point as to why people couldn't afford the basics, but no, you're right in saying it doesn't make them poverty stricken. There's so many strands of this to do with people's beliefs too. Little story here, back in School when we did PE (Physical Education - Your Gym Class I think) there was sometimes bullying going on to the kids who maybe didn't have the latest trainers or whatever, and they were called poor by the other kids. I myself didn't partake in this but the point is they weren't poor, they just didn't have enough disposable income, or rather their parents didn't, to buy these latest trainers. I think that's where poverty gets misconstrued.

 

[Accountable]

Do I win anything? And was it hard to admit we are on the same page here? :24:

Hey, when something this rare happens, it's cause for celebration. Sorta like a comet passing.

 

[Johnfromokc]

True. If it did, then I would understand why you're so hostile.

I'm not hostile in the least. You just don't seem to understand why someone would disagree with your CATO logic.

That it is. It is not setting a standard for the poor. Such phrasing indicates a wish for "the poor" to stay poor. I reject that concept.

You keep saying "you reject the concept" but that is exactly what you are proposing

No sarcasm necessary. We'll find common ground soon enough.

What sarcasm? You lost me here. Matter of fact, you keep denying much of what you say when cornered for clarification, so who knows where you're attempting to go with all this circular "logic".

You've clearly made up your mind. I doubt it's open at all. Who is Neal Boortz? Never mind. I'm sure it was a rhetorical statement anyway.

Rhetorical indeed..."Who is Neal Borrtz?"...LOL...

Made up my mind? I've made up my mind to educate myself and actually verify the rhetoric put out by "think tanks" funded by the monied interests that benefit from all the "studies" and essays these "think tanks" churn out. I suggest you do the same.

Employers can't force people to work, but you already know that.

And you already know that the unskilled either choose low wage jobs or welfare. Great choice huh?

I don't view these conversations as competitions. Tell me if you wish. I'm sure I'd appreciate the information.

Since you are so certain living wage laws and universal healthcare "won't work", I thought you'd jump at the chance to provde statistics to prove me wrong. Guess you're not so certain after all. Fine, here ya go:

The conservative Heritage Foundation ranked Australia as the third most economically free country in the world in 2010, while the U.S. came in eighth place.

As of June 2010, Australia’s minimum wage is $15 an hour with mandated universal health care, while the U.S. federal minimum wage is nearly half that, at $7.25 an hour and no health care mandate.

Economics textbooks present the overly simplistic notion that minimum wages higher than the market floor results in higher unemployment. At the time of publication of this index, Australia had an unemployment rate of 4.2% and the U.S. had a rate of 9.4%.

Interesting statistics, no?

You forgot about the idea, the catalyst of any business endeavor. As for your morality jaunt, you seem to equate employment with slavery. They're not equal.

You'd be quite surprised what I know about business endeavors. Visit my profile -it's quite brief, but you strike me as one quite capable of reading between the lines. I equate employment with human dignity, and unforutnately, for many of our low wage, unskilled workforce, "they're not equal".

Minimum wage is a red herring - a political cat toy to distract voters. Big corporations are already sending as many jobs overseas as they can. What jobs? Unskilled minimum wage jobs. Even McDonalds pays more than minimum wage, last time I checked. The only employers artificially hiking up entry-level pay would affect would be the small businessman - the guy who can least afford it.

Still waiting for your statistics to prove your point. McDonalds in Oklahoma City does indeed start all employees at minimum wage. How do I know this? I have two teenagers employed at Micky Dees. They come home from work and tell me about the adults that work there, like the 83 year old Indian woman struggling to make ends meet, and the latino's and other minorities working right alongside the unskilled caucaisions.

Under our current system, small business suffers greatly. Our health insurance system has been strapped to the employer. It is not so difficult for a Fortune 500 corporation to pay a portion of employees health insurance premiums as it is for small business. This hurts small business in many ways, and hurts employees of small business who cannot afford their share of the health insurance premium and often go without.

Many employees stuck in dead end jobs stay in those jobs if they have health insurance. They could make more money elsewhere, but our current laws allow health insurers to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions or raise the premiums so high that the majority of the wages of the new better paying job go to pay health insurance premiums. Although the "Affordable Healthcare Act" addressed this issue to a small extent, the right wing in the United States is working dilligently to restore the rights of the insurance industry to deny coverage. As long as the burden of providing health insurance is strapped to the employer, small business and workers will suffer.

Tell me...Why is it Australia, and most other industrialized nations can do what is right for its citizens, but the United States won't, and has convinced half of the middle class that we have "the best health care in the world", and what those other countries have is "Socialism"?

Again, I'm not into competition. You can boast if you like, though. opcorn2:

Interesting. I could have sworn you said:

I've been trained. You presume much.

Yes, you said you have been trained in the poverty experience. I'm asking for clarification to your claim. Will you back up this claim, or shall I raise the BS flag?

 

[Accountable]

The conservative Heritage Foundation ranked Australia as the third most economically free country in the world in 2010, while the U.S. came in eighth place.

As of June 2010, Australia’s minimum wage is $15 an hour with mandated universal health care, while the U.S. federal minimum wage is nearly half that, at $7.25 an hour and no health care mandate.

Economics textbooks present the overly simplistic notion that minimum wages higher than the market floor results in higher unemployment. At the time of publication of this index, Australia had an unemployment rate of 4.2% and the U.S. had a rate of 9.4%.

Interesting statistics, no?

Actually, no. Correlation is not causation. Did the Heritage Foundation credit Australia's economic freedom to their minimum wage?

I looked at the Heritage link. Interesting. I generally stay away from biased sites. I like this article, though. The cynic in me can't help but wonder what stats they discarded. No matter. Here's what I found:

While many large advanced economies have emerged from the recent economic downturn with growing debt burdens, Australia’s gross public debt stands at less than 25 percent of GDP [our debt exceeds 90%]. With robust supervision and sound regulation, the banking system has coped well with the financial turmoil, and the government’s budget deficit is much lower than those of other major economies. Temporary stimulus measures have largely been phased out.

Australia’s modern and competitive economy performs well on many of the 10 economic freedoms. The country has a strong tradition of openness to global trade and investment, and transparent and efficient regulations are applied evenly in most cases. An independent judiciary protects property rights, and the level of corruption is quite low.

[...]

In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 30.8 percent. [ours was 26.]

[...]

In the most recent year, total government expenditures, including consumption and transfer payments, held steady at 34.3 percent of GDP.[ours was 38.9]

I equate employment with human dignity,

Clearly you don't. I'd believe you if you claimed that you equate forcing employers to pay wages higher than natural market forces would bring with human dignity, though.

McDonalds in Oklahoma City does indeed start all employees at minimum wage.

Oops. My information was indeed old. McDonalds here used to pay more, but the last minimum wage hike was prohibitive, so they can only meet it. We have a fast food BBQ place here, Bill Millers, that still pays a little higher.

Under our current system, small business suffers greatly. Our health insurance system has been strapped to the employer. It is not so difficult for a Fortune 500 corporation to pay a portion of employees health insurance premiums as it is for small business. This hurts small business in many ways, and hurts employees of small business who cannot afford their share of the health insurance premium and often go without.

See? I knew we'd find common ground, even though we disagree on the solution. Health insurance used to be a perc, a benefit. Somehow it morphed into a right of the employee and an obligation of the employer. Insurers have infiltrated every aspect of our society like a cancer. I'd like to see that cancer eradicated.

Tell me...Why is it Australia, and most other industrialized nations can do what is right for its citizens, but the United States won't, and has convinced half of the middle class that we have "the best health care in the world", and what those other countries has is "Socialism"?

That question is so loaded I'm surprised it didn't collapse under the weight.

Yes, you said you have been trained in the poverty experience. I'm asking for clarification to your claim. Will you back up this claim, or shall I raise the BS flag?

Ooooh! Threats! :eek

 

[Johnfromokc]

Actually, no. Correlation is not causation. Did the Heritage Foundation credit Australia's economic freedom to their minimum wage?

I like this article, though. The cynic in me can't help but wonder what stats they discarded. No matter. Here's what I found:

What you found was a country with a mandated $15 per hour minimum wage, universal health care, 4 weeks mandated paid vacation for full time workers and vacation premium pay is out-performing the United States economically. Interesting you would quote something that totally discredits your own position. Did you actually read it before you posted it?

I looked at the Heritage link. Interesting. I generally stay away from biased sites.

Why do I so not believe you?

Clearly you don't. I'd believe you if you claimed that you equate forcing employers to pay wages higher than natural market forces would bring with human dignity, though.

And you my friend think people should work for slave wages if the market will bear it.

Oops. My information was indeed old. McDonalds here used to pay more, but the last minimum wage hike was prohibitive, so they can only meet it.

Where is your verifiable evidence to support this talking point you repeated from talk radio and conservative libertarian think tanks? No, you have no verifiable evidence of this except think tank economic theory. I have presented firm evidence that a living wage law does work and supports a robust economy in Australia

We have a fast food BBQ place here, Bill Millers, that still pays a little higher.

How benevolent of them. The single moms working there should kneel before their masters of employment in thanksgiving.

See? I knew we'd find common ground, even though we disagree on the solution. Health insurance used to be a perc, a benefit. Somehow it morphed into a right of the employee and an obligation of the employer. Insurers have infiltrated every aspect of our society like a cancer. I'd like to see that cancer eradicated.

So you are agreeing we need a universal health care system like Australia, France or Germany?

That question is so loaded I'm surprised it didn't collapse under the weight.

You are collapsing under the weight of evidence provided against your positions. Your cute little smiley proves you are cornered. Can't back up your position with verifiable facts and statistics? Trot out the trusty smiley.

Ooooh! Threats! :eek

Threats? Please. Asking you to verify what YOU said is a threat? One more time. You said, and I am quoting you verbatim:

I've been trained. You presume much.

So what did I presume? YOU stated you have "been trained" how to be poor. Why won't you come clean? Tell us of your poverty experiences...that is unless you are lying in attempt to sound credible. You have painted yourself into a corner. Either tell your story, or admit you don't have one and move on.

I smell bullshit all the way from Texas.....

 

[Accountable]

What you found was a country with a mandated $15 per hour minimum wage, universal health care, 4 weeks mandated paid vacation for full time workers and vacation premium pay is out-performing the United States economically. Interesting you would quote something that totally discredits your own position. Did you actually read it before you posted it?

It had nothing whatever about a minimum wage, certainly nothing crediting anyone's minimum wage law with positively affecting a strong economy.

Oops. My information was indeed old. McDonalds here used to pay more, but the last minimum wage hike was prohibitive, so they can only meet it.

Where is your verifiable evidence to support this talking point you repeated from talk radio and conservative libertarian think tanks?[/quote]Where's your verifiable evidence that wages paid in a San Antonio McDonalds is the subject of a talking point repeated from talk radio and conservative libertarian think tanks? Your evidence of McDonalds paying minimum wage was your kids. I accept that. My evidence that agreed with you is a friend that's partnered in a few franchises. I couldn't care less whether you accept that.

So you are agreeing we need a universal health care system like Australia, France or Germany?

Clearly not, as I stated.

 

[Johnfromokc]

First off, we are all STILL awaiting, with pregnant anticipation, your story of your "training" in being poor. Your credibility is suffering - if you claim something, you need to back it up. Why not share your story? Surely we could all learn something from it.

It had nothing whatever about a minimum wage, certainly nothing crediting anyone's minimum wage law with positively affecting a strong economy.

Australia has a robust working class and middle class, strong labor laws, living wages, universal health care, and it's just a coincidence their economy is outperforming ours?

And it's also a coinkydink that the United States, with our $7.25 minimum wage, the most expensive health care on the planet, and some of the weakest labor laws, with a shrinking middle class is in such poor economic condition currently?

Add in the three wars we are currently engaged in and have been engaged in for the past 9 years, while lowering taxes on the wealthiest Americans and corporations....nah...that's gotta be one of those coinkydinks too huh?

Do you actually contemplate these issues before you post them?

My guess would be that your political prejudice snapped your mind up tight and blinded you before you even joined this forum. You were certainly convinced you have my number within a post or two.

LOL....I do indeed have your number. Know why? I used to think like you do, until I made the error of actually questioning my own beliefs and verifying them. I'm a firm believer that one should constantly question ones own beliefs and put them to the truth and morality tests of fact and logic.

I studied conservative libertarianism for about 10 years. I know all the talking points. I was a true believer. If only I could retrieve the thousands of $$ I donated to CATO, The Heritage Foundation, the GOP and the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth". Think, live and learn...You should try it.

You're clairvoyant now? There is no such thing as slave wages. Employers that would pay substandard wages will get substandard employees and would be out of business in no time. The free market is a sword that cuts both ways.

No such thing as slave wages? Really now, Mr. "I-reject-the-concept-of-a-minimum-wage"? The free market is indeed a double edged sword. Unfortunately, our laws have firmly ensconced the sword in the hands of the corporations and monied interests that own both parties of our federal legislature.

You know what I find amazing? How these monied interests have convinced you, a working class teacher (that's what your profile says) to wield the sword against your own friends, famiy and co-workers in defense of low wages, expensive health care, and weak labor laws. In return, they pay a lower effective percentage of their incomes in taxes than you do, and they have convinced you that is what is best for you. Amazing.

I'll let you in on a little secret Accountable - they will never allow you to be a member of their club, no matter how hard you battle for them.

Where's your verifiable evidence that wages paid in a San Antonio McDonalds is the subject of a talking point repeated from talk radio and conservative libertarian think tanks? Your evidence of McDonalds paying minimum wage was your kids. I accept that. My evidence that agreed with you is a friend that's partnered in a few franchises. I couldn't care less whether you accept that.

So you agree with my statement that McDonalds in OKC pays minimum wage, and your "friend" and McDonalds franchise partner also verified it's true in San Antonio. More agreement. Interesting. What exactly is your point here?

As to evidence that talk radio or think tanks said anything about McDonalds in San Antonio...A misunderstanding.. What I said is that your minimum wage talking points are classic conservative libertarian think tank talking points. Here's a couple of CATO essays:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa106.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4950

Those were the first two hits on Google. There's mountains of essays like these on Heritage too. All theory paid for by those who benefit from fooling working class folks like you into believing it.

 

[BornReady]

First off, we are all STILL awaiting, with pregnant anticipation, your story of your "training" in being poor.

We? If Accountable says he was poor once then I believe him. If I called him a liar then I expect he'd consider me hostile with reason.

 

[Alien Allen]

We? If Accountable says he was poor once then I believe him. If I called him a liar then I expect he'd consider me hostile with reason.

I think somebody was brainwashed by Ed Schultz

 

[Accountable]

I think somebody was brainwashed by Ed Schultz

Hold it right there! :24:

 

[Johnfromokc]

We? If Accountable says he was poor once then I believe him. If I called him a liar then I expect he'd consider me hostile with reason.

I'm not hostile, just persistent. Put it out in a public forum and expect scrutiny. If you make a claim, then back it up. Simple concept. I'd love to hear his story. We all have a story don't we? It's good to compare and maybe learn something about other members. But to make a claim as if to gain credibility from that claim, and then turn around and refuse to elaborate? That creates an air of dishonesty.

.

 

[Accountable]

LOL....I do indeed have your number. Know why? I used to think like you do, until I made the error of actually questioning my own beliefs and verifying them. I'm a firm believer that one should constantly question ones own beliefs and put them to the truth and morality tests of fact and logic.

I studied conservative libertarianism for about 10 years. I know all the talking points. I was a true believer. If only I could retrieve the thousands of $$ I donated to CATO, The Heritage Foundation, the GOP and the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth". Think, live and learn...You should try it.

Ah, so Libertarianism was your old religion and now you've found a new one. Nobody likes a born-again - well - anything.

The free market is indeed a double edged sword. Unfortunately, our laws have firmly ensconced the sword in the hands of the corporations and monied interests that own both parties of our federal legislature.

See? Something else we agree on.

Look, John, it's been fun derailing the hell out of the thread and all, but I'm done with it. Congrats to your NBA Thunder. They did great in the playoffs kicking the asses of the guys that wiped the floor with my Spurs. I hope you enjoy your stay here. OTZ is a lot of fun and lots of freedom.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Ah, so Libertarianism was your old religion and now you've found a new one. Nobody likes a born-again - well - anything.

I'm Agnostic my friend, both religiously and politically. I don't drink the Koolaide of either side. If it was my religion, I'd still think like you and worship at the alter of the monied interests that will never allow you into their financial church.

See? Something else we agree on.

I doubt it. I'd bet you think the TEA Party is a grass roots movement fighting for the working class. Am I right?

Look, John, it's been fun derailing the hell out of the thread and all, but I'm done with it.

What? You still refusing to tell your poverty story? That's quite dissapointing - I was looking forward to comparing your life experience to mine. We might have found some common ground.

Congrats to your NBA Thunder. They did great in the playoffs kicking the asses of the guys that wiped the floor with my Spurs. I hope you enjoy your stay here. OTZ is a lot of fun and lots of freedom.

Don't watch B-ball, but thanks all the same.

Got a book for ya Accountable. If you're as open minded as you claim, give it a read:



And this one's quite excellent as well: