Did God create Dogs?

[The Man]

Its what for supper.

 

[The Man]

He presents terminology of a faith in almighty God while previously claiming science can bring God to his knees to be scientifically investigated. .

Well at least two gods have fallen to their knees this week .

 

[The Man]

Dogs can evolve yes.
But can God{s} evolve into board members?
This thread aint dead yet.

 

[Stone]

........................
This thread aint dead yet.

Looks like just another shameless fundamentalist attempt at imposing 'creationist' propaganda.
Possibly Islamic style.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know mazHur well, but I get the notion he is of the Islamic persuasion?

Anyway, several decades ago, ICR ( http://www.icr.org/ ) a radical fundamentalist 'Christian' creationist 'educational' industry cut a deal with their Islamic counterpart ( in creationism ) in Turkey, BAV-Bilim Arastirma Vakfi , which translates to "Science Research Foundation" and headed by H Yahya, an alias of Adan Oktar. If you do searches on BAV and Oktar, you'll find connections to their support of overthrowing the government of Turkey ( where they are based ) and installing a Islamic theocracy. But also ties to small time crime early in BAV's history. It's questionable as to whether BAV was using religion as a front to hide criminal activities or an actual religious movement.
Anyway, the Morris family, father Henry and son John, invested millions into bringing BAV up to speed in creationist arguments along with instructing BAV on how to present creationist materials that ICR provided.
Over time, many Islamic arguments from outside of Turkey began supporting creationism by mirroring much of ICR's propaganda.

Worth a read:
http://ncse.com/rncse/19/6/cloning-creationism-turkey


What is ironic is that a Christian outfit funded a competing religion that attempts to dominate it, all to further the creationist movement.
And that many Islamicists are viewed as terrorists and the BAV as a crime family, and yet the Morris family funded them anyway. Hmmm!


Sadly, few fundamentalists quote Kent Hovind anymore in creationist debates. Probably something to do with him appearing mentally unstable and currently residing in a federal penitentiary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind

Ken Ham seems more cautious by disassociating himself from his early years at ICR and resisting the common rants. But his attempt at recreating science and the laws of nature flawed.
He's attempting to 'float a big boat' in Kentucky.



So, there haven't been any surprises in this thread for me.
The dog angle is new. But obviously not a good example to work with.

 

[Stone]

Ah.....found a 'Dog' argument that pretty much flows as I suspected, as a an argument for creationism using loony 'creation science' as a rationale.
http://apologeticspress.net/DiscoveryPubPage.aspx?pub=2&issue=902&article=1091


mazHur.....are you cribbing off this article? Or even one like it?

 

[The Man]

Looks like just another shameless fundamentalist attempt at imposing 'creationist' propaganda.
Possibly Islamic style.
Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know mazHur well, but I get the notion he is of the Islamic persuasion?

Anyway, several decades ago, ICR ( http://www.icr.org/ ) a radical fundamentalist 'Christian' creationist 'educational' industry cut a deal with their Islamic counterpart ( in creationism ) in Turkey, BAV-Bilim Arastirma Vakfi , which translates to "Science Research Foundation" and headed by H Yahya, an alias of Adan Oktar. If you do searches on BAV and Oktar, you'll find connections to their support of overthrowing the government of Turkey ( where they are based ) and installing a Islamic theocracy. But also ties to small time crime early in BAV's history. It's questionable as to whether BAV was using religion as a front to hide criminal activities or an actual religious movement.
Anyway, the Morris family, father Henry and son John, invested millions into bringing BAV up to speed in creationist arguments along with instructing BAV on how to present creationist materials that ICR provided.
Over time, many Islamic arguments from outside of Turkey began supporting creationism by mirroring much of ICR's propaganda.

Worth a read:
http://ncse.com/rncse/19/6/cloning-creationism-turkey


What is ironic is that a Christian outfit funded a competing religion that attempts to dominate it, all to further the creationist movement.
And that many Islamicists are viewed as terrorists and the BAV as a crime family, and yet the Morris family funded them anyway. Hmmm!


Sadly, few fundamentalists quote Kent Hovind anymore in creationist debates. Probably something to do with him appearing mentally unstable and currently residing in a federal penitentiary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind

Ken Ham seems more cautious by disassociating himself from his early years at ICR and resisting the common rants. But his attempt at recreating science and the laws of nature flawed.
He's attempting to 'float a big boat' in Kentucky.



So, there haven't been any surprises in this thread for me.
The dog angle is new. But obviously not a good example to work with.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know mazHur well, but I get the notion he is of the Islamic persuasion?

Yes he is and from Pk as well.
I have clashed with him in the past.
But in his defense...while he may not agree with other religions...he doesnt hate one if one is not Islamic.
Which is a pretty good position IMO from a man living in a culture where Islam goes deep.

I guess what I am trying to say is if I had to go to Pk for some reason..I would have Maz meet me at the airport to keep me safe from harm.

 

[Stone]

............................
But in his defense...while he may not agree with other religions...he doesnt hate one if one is not Islamic.

That does speak well of him even though he is wrong about science ( )

 

[The Man]

I was reading lastnight..that dogs go back to the gray wolf.
But most domestic breeds are 2 or 3 hundred years old through manipulation process...thats science in regards to dogs as we know them.
Unless of course the manipulation was done by the forum gods.

 

[Stone]

I'm bailing out for a while.
Just finished a short phone call from my cousin. His cancer has come back and I'm not in a mood for debating anything right now.

Later.

 

[The Man]

Sorry to hear about your cousin...will catch up with you later.

 

[Stone]

In case any one is interested in the evolution of the dog, watch for the rerun of Cosmos this weekend on either one of the Fox networks or National Geographic channel.
The episode this Sunday was quite interesting and discussed the differences between natural and artificial evolution with extreme clarity.
A must-watch if you want to know what evolution is.

 

[mazHur]

It's called being played.
The thread starter is trying to use sophistry to win a debate and he's just not manipulative enough to pull it off.

For instance.
He presents terminology of a faith in almighty God while previously claiming science can bring God to his knees to be scientifically investigated. Think that isn't flip flopping 'a little'?

It seldom works well for the fundamentalist that tries to define reality by using their religious faith as a scientific model.

You are using the wrong word 'sophistry' for my views about the topic as understood by me.
How do you explain color and features difference among human beings starting from Japan down to Australia, India, across Europe and up North pole??
Why these characteristics in humans change from one region to another?
I hope you will not compare it with the imaginary mechanism you proposed for dogs. What you state may be called animal husbandry but not evolution. All life is similar in 'internal biology' but has different 'external bios'. How do you account for that?

Since science does NOT know about God it is averse to its very existence. That doesn't seem to be fair...

 

[mazHur]

Dogs can evolve yes.
But can God{s} evolve into board members?
This thread aint dead yet.

'clap' 'clap'!!

 

[mazHur]

I'm bailing out for a while.
Just finished a short phone call from my cousin. His cancer has come back and I'm not in a mood for debating anything right now.

Later.

me too sorry to hear that....I hope he gets well soon.

 

[Stone]

You are using the wrong word 'sophistry' for my views about the topic as understood by me.
How do you explain color and features difference among human beings starting from Japan down to Australia, India, across Europe and up North pole??
Why these characteristics in humans change from one region to another?
I hope you will not compare it with the imaginary mechanism you proposed for dogs. What you state may be called animal husbandry but not evolution. All life is similar in 'internal biology' but has different 'external bios'. How do you account for that?

Since science does NOT know about God it is averse to its very existence. That doesn't seem to be fair...

You are simply locked into denial of reality because of your own religious beliefs.
That's fine till you start to compare your religious beliefs to scientific reasoning and present an argument why scientific reasoning is incorrect.
Your religious beliefs are not all of my own, nor all of mine yours.
I have no interest in convincing you, your religious beliefs should be changed, BUT......you entered into a scientific discussion with the intent of denying reality to prove and provide your faith as a replacement for scientific thinking.

You have used the typical fundamentalist logic of sophistry from your second post:

Evolution is Science, God is OmniScient.

All scriptures say dogs were also created by God. Can science prove they weren't?

That is neither the purpose nor the ability of the scientific method for studying our physical reality.
You actually demean God by claiming you can treat God as an experiment.

Why these characteristics in humans change from one region to another?

Environmental pressures and genetic drift from being separated geographically with little mixing.
Those are elements of evolution.
Today, with increased travel and globalization, cultures beginning to meld, those differences are slowly beginning to disappear.

All life is similar in 'internal biology' but has different 'external bios'. How do you account for that?

Sophistry.

 

[Stone]

me too sorry to hear that....I hope he gets well soon.

Thank you for the kind thoughts and sympathy.

There is a really dark side to his problems. The government ( Medicare ) has restricted the best treatment for the most cost effective ( read cheapest available ) and allowed too much time to pass with out the correct treatment. His cancer progressed rapidly inbetween the last allowed checkups and I fear it's too late for any successful treatment.
Medical care in the US is deteriorating at a rapid pace.

 

[mazHur]

I hope your cuzzo is better now....

Science is 2+2-4 and my religious doesn't prevent me from delving into science. If you say that that will be an accusation to believers in almost all major faiths.

The point here is not that science be demeaned but at the same time science being a secondary 'gift' of Nature or God cannot have the same status as Faith.
If one has no Faith in something....anything...he is nothing but nothing.
Science cannot teach me to love my loved ones nor teach me to hate the hated ones.
It's your faith in good and evil that makes you do so. And, Faith doesn't stop you to use your scientific models to asses the secrets of Nature ie God.
No sophistry.....it's something from the divine we are discussing besides its greatest gift of intellect and zeal for science. Science is human curiosity to study the secrets of mother Nature and Nature is essentially the source of science.

 

[mazHur]

Thank you for the kind thoughts and sympathy.

There is a really dark side to his problems. The government ( Medicare ) has restricted the best treatment for the most cost effective ( read cheapest available ) and allowed too much time to pass with out the correct treatment. His cancer progressed rapidly inbetween the last allowed checkups and I fear it's too late for any successful treatment.
Medical care in the US is deteriorating at a rapid pace.

That's bad news, friend. We have one of the larges Cancer Hospitals in Pakistan where you could get your cuzzo treated fast and comparatively inexpensively.
Plz check with Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital and see if they could be of any help.
Best of Luck.

 

[Stone]

That's bad news, friend. We have one of the larges Cancer Hospitals in Pakistan where you could get your cuzzo treated fast and comparatively inexpensively.
Plz check with Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital and see if they could be of any help.
Best of Luck.

I'll pass that on......thanks.
Unfortunately, he doesn't have the funds for travel and is essentially at the mercy of our social security system.
He's retired, 73 years old with other financial and family obligations that take up most of his retirement income.
Life in the US is becoming incredibly expensive for the middle class especially in regards to health issues.

 

[mazHur]

I'll pass that on......thanks.
Unfortunately, he doesn't have the funds for travel and is essentially at the mercy of our social security system.
He's retired, 73 years old with other financial and family obligations that take up most of his retirement income.
Life in the US is becoming incredibly expensive for the middle class especially in regards to health issues.

am so sorry to hear that. In Pakistan we don't have social security or medical. However, there are many philanthropists who are providing free medical services and other social services to us people....On the whole health situation is bad..and very expensive in private hospitals and doctor's fees are high and beyond even a upper middle class citizen can afford. Much of the donations to charitable hospitals and healthcare units comes from abroad....both from expatriates as well as locals.

Education too has become too expensive to afford by a middle class family.
National economy is in shambles .....black economy is strong.