DEBATE TOURNEY FINALS- HK vs Retro

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USF Sam

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My original idea was to make the finals "Should elective medical abortion be legal within the first trimester?"


However...


TOPIC: Harry Potter and Dumbledore....

""The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

With this prophesy, Dubmledore discovers what Harry's destiny is before Harry's birth ... and proceeds NOT to tell him until the end of Book 4, when Harry is 14. This is not the first time that Dumbledore did this. Every book ended the same way... Harry and Dumbledore alone and the old man coming clean.

QUESTION: "Should Dumbledore have told Harry about his destiny right away or was he right to keep it and other critical information from him?"


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HK, you may lead off.
 
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HK

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I believe Dumbledore was right to not reveal Harry’s destiny to him sooner.

Firstly, I believe that in this case the ends justified the means. If Dumbledore had chosen to burden the 11 year old Harry with everything he knew when Harry was first brought into the wizarding world, Harry may not have been able to handle it. But thanks to Dumbledore’s method, Harry was able to complete his destiny, destroying Voldemort. Therefore, Dumbledore’s instincts were correct.

Secondly, in their final meeting in Kings Cross Station, Dumbledore says to Harry that he was afraid Harry would make the same mistakes he did if he had learned about one aspect of his fate, the Hallows, sooner. Clearly, part of Dumbledore’s reasoning for keeping Harry in the dark was that he did not wish to taint a young boy’s destiny with the possibility of invincibility. Since Dumbledore himself could not control his greed for such items, how could he ask a teenage boy to do so?
This also meant that Harry was able to grow and evolve without the pressure of his destiny hanging over him. Since the final truth revealed is that Harry has all along been meant to die in order to defeat Voldemort, it is extremely likely that having this knowledge much earlier might have affected all Harry’s decisions, including whether he even fulfilled the prophecy. Burdened with such knowledge at a younger age, he might have been tempted to either back away from his destiny entirely, or rush into a final confrontation before he was ready.

During the series Harry develops a connection to Lord Voldemort. Harry fails to learn occlumency from Professor Snape, so he has no way of keeping his mind closed from intrusion – if Dumbledore had chosen to make Harry aware of the part he was expected to play in bringing Voldemort down, Voldemort may have become aware of the plan and been able to thwart their attempts. Dumbledore tells Snape in the final book that he had long suspected that the connection between Harry and Voldemort existed – which explains why he only ever revealed information to Harry when he had no other choice.

Overall, I believe that if Dumbledore had revealed everything he knew far sooner then Harry would have not become the man he was able to, and ultimately may not have defeated Voldemort at all.
 

retro

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The concept of “destiny” is a tricky one. Who is to say that one is destined to do or not do something?

As we learn during the progression of the Harry Potter series, the prophecy made by Professor Trelalwney could have referred to two different children. Both of these children were born at the end of July, and both had parents that had defied Voldemort on three separate occasions: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. Voldemort chose Harry, which would then lead one to believe that true "destiny" doesn't actually exist.

If Dumbledore had told Harry about the prophecy far earlier, Harry could have made a choice to not fulfill the prophecy. It should have been his choice to make; but it instead ultimately became a choice that Dumbledore made for him. That’s not to say that Dumbledore had impure motives, quite the contrary. I believe that Dumbledore kept as much from Harry as he did because he truly cared about him. Unfortunately, caring about someone or loving them can at times lead us to make decisions based on what we think is best for that person, rather than to tell them the truth, and let them make decisions on their own.

I believe that Dumbledore was doing what he felt was best, both for Harry and for the wizarding world in general. But in doing so, he robbed Harry of being able to make his own destiny. Had he told Harry the full truth about his past, he wouldn’t have been so suspicious of Professor Snape. That could have led to him actually realizing the importance of, and learning to use occulemency. Had he chosen to learn it from Snape, it could very well have prevented the death of Sirius Black, Harry’s godfather.

Life is a series of choices that we all make. We choose to get out of bed in the morning, or we choose to call in sick to work, or skip class. We choose whether or not to believe a prophecy that could or could not refer to us. In keeping the truth from Harry, Dumbledore robbed Harry of his right to choose. Given Harry’s progression through the books, it is probable that Harry would have decided to believe the prophecy regardless. But he wasn’t given that chance, because Dumbledore chose to keep the truth from Harry.
 

HK

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I agree that Dumbledore did not give Harry the chance to make these choices for himself. He could have given Harry all the information and let him make a decision based on the facts, rather than what Harry believed to be true right up until the last moment.

He did have a lot of care for Harry, but by protecting him he gave Harry a chance to grow into his role, rather than having it thrust upon him at a young age and it potentially being too much for a young boy. The Harry we see in the books endures many trials and learns something new from each of them – if the opportunity to face these challenges with a blank slate was tainted by his knowledge of what it was all leading up to then who knows how he would have turned out? The fact that Harry is as selfless as he is before he joins the wizarding community is attributed to the fact that he was never aware of his famous history until he was old enough to not be affected by it. Dumbledore was aware himself of how the possibility of fame and power can corrupt someone, and so he tried to prevent Harry from falling into it’s clutches.

Dumbledore also had bigger concerns than Harry’s fate and his own affection for him. Voldemort was a threat to the whole world, and the prophecy stated that neither could live while the other survives. So from the moment Voldemort fulfilled the start of the prophecy by marking Harry as his equal, Dumbledore was aware that this baby would eventually have to die facing Voldemort in order to defeat the dark lord. Some of his apparent nurturing of Harry could have been motivated not by affection but by a desire to make sure the prophecy was fulfilled and Voldemort defeated, something which would mean the sacrifice of a young man, but would ultimately mean the freedom of the wizarding community.

If Dumbledore had left the choice of whether to fulfil the prophecy with Harry, it is entirely possible that Harry would either have shirked from his responsibility, or more likely given Harry’s spontaneous nature, rushed into a confrontation with Voldemort before he was ready. Dumbledore might have taken that choice away from Harry, but in doing so he was securing the safety of literally the rest of the world.
 

retro

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Where does free will enter into that equation of supposedly infallible prophecies? There is obviously some kind of free will in the area of prophecies; because Voldemort chose to try to kill Harry instead of Neville. Couldn’t then have Harry decided that he didn’t want to face Voldemort? I argue that he should have been given that choice. But instead, Dumbledore thrust it upon him as what was going to happen, when he told Harry that he was going to have to kill Voldemort or be killed himself.

Dumbledore himself has something to say about the fallibility of prophecies, “Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?” He goes on to say, “the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything.” Voldemort and Harry chose to seek each other out, because they believed they had to, and that is what led to the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Had Harry known the truth earlier, he could have properly prepared himself for the challenges that lay ahead of him. Notice how Harry is often-times aloof and doesn’t take his studies seriously. This is evidenced in the Triwizard tournament. He ultimately needed help every step of the way. Moody/Crouch Jr. got Hagrid to tell Harry about the dragons and gave him a strategy, he had Cedric tell him how to find out what the egg said, and he gave Neville the information about gillyweed for the water challenge. Outside of the tournament, Harry seemed to survive his many ordeals through dumb luck.

Harry didn’t know how important he ultimately could be, and his inability to take his studies and the situations he was in seriously could have made the prophecy fallible in the end. This is because of Dumbledore’s decision to keep the truth from Harry. His desire to protect Harry could very well have led to the doom of the entire wizarding world.

Prophecies do not have to come to fruition, the choices that are made determine the future. Harry ultimately chose to fulfill the prophecy, but he walked a razor’s edge to get there. One wrong choice could have led to an entirely different outcome. Dumbledore should have realized that Harry needed to be prepared if he were to save the wizarding world. His choice to hide the truth could have ultimately led to Voldemort being victorious, without ever needing to face Harry.
 

HK

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Where does free will enter into that equation of supposedly infallible prophecies? There is obviously some kind of free will in the area of prophecies; because Voldemort chose to try to kill Harry instead of Neville. Couldn’t then have Harry decided that he didn’t want to face Voldemort? I argue that he should have been given that choice. But instead, Dumbledore thrust it upon him as what was going to happen, when he told Harry that he was going to have to kill Voldemort or be killed himself.

There is obviously free will involved because Voldemort chose between Harry and Neville – if he hadn’t chosen either, he would never have marked a boy as his equal and given them the potential to later defeat him. However, it was outside Dumbledore’s power to affect that particular choice, and once Voldemort chose Harry, the prophecy was set in motion. All Dumbledore could do was attempt to guide the chosen boy to the final conclusion.

Dumbledore himself has something to say about the fallibility of prophecies, “Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?” He goes on to say, “the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything.” Voldemort and Harry chose to seek each other out, because they believed they had to, and that is what led to the fulfillment of the prophecy.

The prophecy did not have to be fulfilled, this is true, but if this particular prophecy were not then the likelihood was that Voldemort would go unchecked and cause a great deal of devastation. The prophecy names the ‘chosen one’ as ‘the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord’, which suggests that nobody else could succeed except Harry.

Had Harry known the truth earlier, he could have properly prepared himself for the challenges that lay ahead of him. Notice how Harry is often-times aloof and doesn’t take his studies seriously. This is evidenced in the Triwizard tournament. He ultimately needed help every step of the way. Moody/Crouch Jr. got Hagrid to tell Harry about the dragons and gave him a strategy, he had Cedric tell him how to find out what the egg said, and he gave Neville the information about gillyweed for the water challenge. Outside of the tournament, Harry seemed to survive his many ordeals through dumb luck.

Harry didn’t know how important he ultimately could be, and his inability to take his studies and the situations he was in seriously could have made the prophecy fallible in the end. This is because of Dumbledore’s decision to keep the truth from Harry. His desire to protect Harry could very well have led to the doom of the entire wizarding world.

I disagree – Harry’s success against Voldemort came down to his character and his selflessness, his ability to sacrifice himself for other people – he was anything but aloof. People offered him help for exactly this reason; he was a likeable boy and he had friends who honestly believed in him. In his studies Hermione always overshadowed him, but he was also a very good wizard himself and was considered Auror material, so he was hardly a slouch. His efforts in the Triwizard Tournament were lacking, but he knew all along that his entry was through foul play, so this was bound to make him feel unenthusiastic.

Prophecies do not have to come to fruition, the choices that are made determine the future. Harry ultimately chose to fulfill the prophecy, but he walked a razor’s edge to get there. One wrong choice could have led to an entirely different outcome. Dumbledore should have realized that Harry needed to be prepared if he were to save the wizarding world. His choice to hide the truth could have ultimately led to Voldemort being victorious, without ever needing to face Harry.

It’s true that the entire endeavour could have gone horribly wrong, but I believe Dumbledore picked the path more likely to lead to victory. The preparation that Harry needed was ultimately preparation of the soul, to be able to face going willingly to his own death. To do that, he needed to build up friendships, have loved ones he wanted to save. If Dumbledore had burdened him with the truth – that he should die in order to save everyone else – he might never have made those essential bonds and would have gone to Voldemort because he felt he had no choice, not because he knew it was the right thing to do. Harry continuously chose to keep facing Voldemort and his allies right from book one, despite the danger to himself, so by keeping the secret of his final destiny from him, Dumbledore simply removed the one piece of knowledge that might have stopped Harry from continuing his course.
 

retro

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How Harry was entered into the Triwizard tournament is irrelevant. The fact remains that he got caught up in the fame that surrounded him, and that is what led him to shirk his responsibilities to prepare, not because he was unenthusiastic. His attitude through the entire tournament screams to me that he wasn’t taking it seriously, just as he tended not to realize the consequences of his actions in confronting Voldemort and his followers throughout the series.

Harry actually wasn’t considered to be aurer material until Slughorn’s hiring to replace Snape as Potion’s Master. Instead, Harry chose to believe that since Snape was out to get him anyway, then he shouldn’t put forth the effort to learn the material. If you review his grades, he regularly got slightly above average marks in his classes, with the exception of DAtDA. This tells me that despite his obvious intelligence, he simply didn’t want to put the work necessary into his classes. His great potential was not fully realized because of this laziness.

Had Harry known the truth earlier, there is a strong possibility that he could have learned to control his very obvious character flaws. The most obvious of which is that he effectively wore his heart on his sleeve, which led him to be rather predictable. Harry is often unable to control his emotions, particularly anger, which made it impossible for him to master Occlumency. The related issue that proved to be a large flaw is that he had the proclivity to tackle head on, with no thought of the consequences; which made him rather predictable. Voldemort utilized this predictability to lure him into the Hall of Prophecy to face an ambush.

We can’t assume that Harry would not have undergone the same transformations in his character had he been told of the prophecy at an earlier date. It can actually be posited that he could have reached his potential far earlier, had Dumbledore entrusted with information about his own past and potential future.

It seems rather obvious that, despite his affections for Harry, Dumbledore manipulated him into the position that he did. A position where Harry felt he had no choice but to behave how Dumbledore believed he should, instead of allowing him to make his own choices. Dumbledore’s decision to keep the truth from Harry seems to be an arrogant one, because he felt that he alone knew best.
 

HK

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Every character has flaws - even the 'good' characters throughout the series have never been portrayed as perfect people. This is relevant to Dumbledore - he himself is not perfect and well aware of his failings. As I said, he expresses the desire to prevent Harry was repeating his mistakes, and his decision to try and down-play Harry's importance throughout the books falls in line with this. Dumbledore feared that if Harry had been privy to the whole truth then the possibility of power and the sense of importance would have clouded his judgement just as it clouded Dumbledore before him.

I agree we can only speculate on what Harry would have been like had he known everything from the start. Dumbledore did have good reasons for keeping Harry on the path that he did though, even if it took longer - the destroying of the Hallows was passed over to Harry, so if he had attempted to confront Voldemort and his destiny any sooner, he may well have failed because of the need to destroy the majority of the Hallows first.

It may have been arrogant of Dumbledore to manipulate Harry into following the path that he chose for him. But as I said in my first post, the ends justify the means. Dumbledore had two options, tell Harry everything and risk him balking away from his final role, or keep him in the dark and try and prepare him along the way. I believe that to Dumbledore, this second option must have seemed like the safer one, to nurture the boy and steer him in the right direction without having to deal with the unpleasant constant knowledge that he would one day have to sacrifice himself. Once Harry does learn of this part, he's older and mature enough to process it.

Overall, I believe Dumbledore had good reason to keep his secrets. Affection - he spared Harry several years of the burden of that prophecy. Security - he suspected early on that Voldemort and Harry might be linked mentally. Rationalisation - Harry was one boy who could save millions, Dumbledore had to think of the many rather than the individual. And emotion - it's true that Harry had a tendency to react explosively as you said yourself, so the revelation of his fate could have provoked an outburst with unforeseen consequences had he learned about it earlier.
 

retro

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The fact that Dumbledore wished Harry to avoid his own mistakes is proof enough that he should not have been dictating Harry's future. Regardless of what his intentions were or weren't, the fact remains that he robbed a boy of the right to choose his own destiny. Dumbledore kept the truth from Harry as a means to lead him down the path he believed Harry should travel. If he had told Harry the truth from the beginning, there would have been a strong possibility that Harry could have made a vastly different choice than what Dumbledore intended for him.

Dumbledore wasn’t even aware of the fact that Harry would eventually have to sacrifice himself until much later on; after he had let Harry know of the prophecy. So the argument that Dumbledore hid the truth to spare him of the knowledge that he would have to sacrifice himself is null and void. Furthermore, it was information that he entrusted to Snape, but never Harry.

The end justifying the means is a poor argument in this situation. Because there is no evidence to suggest that Harry would not have confronted Voldemort in the end regardless. On the contrary, the fact that Voldemort believed the prophecy to be infallible made that an eventuality. Claiming that Dumbledore only had the options you listed is also flawed. There was a third option available to him. He could have told Harry the truth, and chosen to nurture him along the way; while allowing him to decide his own path. Had he done that, Harry could have been far better prepared for the trials and challenges he would face.

We've addressed the issue of affection; Dumbledore would not have spared Harry the burden of knowing he would have to die, because that wasn't known to Dumbledore at the time. As far as rationalization goes; If Dumbledore had been rational in his thinking, and not clouded by affection, he would have realized the advantage of letting Harry know the truth. Instead he slowly gave him information over the years. For the topic of emotion, it is actually more likely that if Harry knew the truth, it would motivate him further to defeat Voldemort.

In the end, Dumbledore effectively robbed Harry of what makes us all human --- the ability to choose his own fate.
 

USF Sam

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DEBATE CLOSED

I want to thank both sides for a very interesting read.

You all know the deal.

PM me your votes with the reason for your vote.

I'm looking at keeping the voting open thru the weekend, so you have time to read and digest.
 

HK

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Please vote guys. We took some time doing this, it'd be a right shame to not get feedback on it :)
 

Tangerine

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I'll admit I was reluctant to vote, because I was reluctant to read. I have never read the books, but have seen all the films. So for me to read all the posts and form an opinion took a big sacrifice, I had to be willing to allow the final film, and the entire story, to be spoiled for me. So be it. I have voted, and now I can only hope the last film will be enjoyable enough anyway, now that I already know the ending.
 

porterjack

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i recognise that work went into this but i know nothing of JK Rowlings work so really my vote would be mute
 

HK

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Just to assure everyone who's not reading because of spoilers, I'm pretty sure we didn't give away the actual ending. I know it sounds like it but what we were mainly talking about here isn't the whole story, just what was relevant to the debate :)

And like Zirc said, it doesn't have to be about who you agree with so much as who did better. Thanks to anyone who does vote :)
 

porterjack

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Well, it's not necessarily a vote on who you agree with. It can be a vote for who you think debated better. :dunno I've never read Harry Potter either but I still voted. :)
bugger


now i have some reading

Hail to the Queen etc etc
 
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