Can Destiny and Free Will Coexist?

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Gabe

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Well, there's two ways of thinking it. Either you're a fan a Newtonian Physics, in which case you'll argue that if one knows the position and velocity of all particles in the Universe, one can reconstruct any event from the past, or accurately predict any event of the future (=destiny). Or, you're of the Quantum Mechanics Church, in which case "the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that the values of certain pairs of conjugate variables (position and momentum, for instance) cannot both be known with arbitrary precision. That is, the more precisely one variable is known, the less precisely the other is known"(=free will, quote from wiki).

That said, what I believe sort of depends on my mood. Believing in free will certainly makes life seem more worthwhile than the alternative, although a lot of times I find it easier to just say "Hey, it had to happen, there's nothing you can do about it, the same way you can't do anything about what comes next." As for the question in the thread title, I think they can. While it may seem that these two, shall we say, beliefs oppose each other, I think they don't. I believe free will is when someone chooses something by himself/herself, without being conscious of any other influence. In other words, I believe that one has chosen freely when one is not aware of any outside force (that does sound a little melodramatic, doesn't it?) influencing their choice, even if such a force does exist. Of course, we could get into the whole concept of manipulation here, but I think that's something to be discussed in another topic.

Cheers,

Gabe
 
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JuggaloGemini

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Philosophically my thoughts on Fate & Destiny are about the same thing... "it is what it is and even if it isn't... it still is!" Freewill in my mind is just about acceptance... meaning that you can't turn someone into who you would like them to be... you have to accept them for who they are as they should like and accept you for who you are!
fate and destiny are just a expansive way of saying it was bound or meant to happen... a little more to think about but no way to prove otherwise because we can't change what has already happened cuz there is no way to go back. as far as Tods will... thats just a bunch or rubbish if you ask me... and I think I was front and center in many many past lives ago when that shit started... It went something like this... a person loses someone very near to their heart and they said but it was gods will it was their time to pass on... but thats ok they are in a better place now... with so and so that passed on and so and so that passed on and that is basically where heaven started! Now can they co-exist yes cuz if something was desnite to happen then freewill comes in because you have to accept it meaning can't change what was unpreventiable... wow my a.d.d. is starting to show through now lol
I am gonna put the keyboard away before I venture off into another branch of subject like Karma and tell twelve differnt stories that will branch off again and lead me right back into the same underlying question... so I change my answer to maybe they can co exist together maybe they can't... there is no right answer... and there is no wrong answer... philosopy is great
 

Accountable

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Free will is accepting others?!? :wtf:

So you believe you don't really have a say in how you will turn out in life? whether you will be rich or poor, good or bad? Serial killers and world leaders don't really choose their paths?
 

JuggaloGemini

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Free will is accepting others?!? :wtf:

So you believe you don't really have a say in how you will turn out in life? whether you will be rich or poor, good or bad? Serial killers and world leaders don't really choose their paths?

no freewill in others you have to accept and can't change... freewill is a form of control and no doubt if you want to be successful you have to use your own freewill better known in my eyes as self control
 

Tim

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I fully believe in my own free will. But that free will is limited/controlled by my experiences, morals, judgment and sense of right and wrong. Sure, I can touch that hot stove if I want since I have free will, but my experience will show me that it's not in my best interest. Because what is free will if it isn't self serving? I prefer to avoid the pain associated with a burn on my hand, so I would exercise my free will not to touch the hot stove.
There are actually many things that can hinder my free will, gravity for one. I can't just jump to the top of a building because I so desire, gravity limits my ability to do so.

Now onto destiny or Predestiny.... I don't believe in destiny as defined in the dictionary as (the predetermined, usually inevitable or irresistible, course of events.) in relation to humans. This is solely a religious belief. Your destiny cannot be predetermined if you are able to change your course at any time along the way... The two don't go together.
 

Accountable

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Free will is just an illusion, a way for us to feel in control of our lives.

I believe in destiny. Everything is pre-determined.
So serial killers kill against their will?
People are welching on loans because of some predetermined plan?
Hillary HAD to stick by Bill no matter how dumb it was at the time?
 

satinbutterfly

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So serial killers kill against their will?
People are welching on loans because of some predetermined plan?
Hillary HAD to stick by Bill no matter how dumb it was at the time?

No, we still have the illusion of free will. I just believe in cycles, and past lives. What's happened before will happen again, and so on.

You may think you're making a choice, of your own free will, but you've made the choice many times before, and will do so many more times.

In the end, it's all about karma.
 

michael4168

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First of all, kudos to Accountable for such a good topic. I believe they can co-exist. I look at destiny as more of a rough outline for whats going to happen in any given persons life. The key points in destiny can not be changed, but the journey to those points are not decided. This is where free will comes into play. Everyone has the free will to do what they want and live life according to their own set of morals.
To sum up my thoughts on this matter: Destiny is the unchangeable outline for ones life. Free will is the path you decide to follow to manifest one's destiny.
 

Accountable

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no freewill in others you have to accept and can't change... freewill is a form of control and no doubt if you want to be successful you have to use your own freewill better known in my eyes as self control
If I read you right, others' free will is their own self control, and to them my self control is free will. So I'll continue calling both free will, if you don't mind.

It seems that astrology assumes that our lives are pre-mapped. If that's true, my actions and emotions are not my own. My crimes are not my fault. Where's the accountability if that is so? Where's the incentive for me to ... well ... do anything at all?? I don't like the idea of being a pawn to be moved around at some anonymous player's whim.
 

Accountable

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No, we still have the illusion of free will. I just believe in cycles, and past lives. What's happened before will happen again, and so on.

You may think you're making a choice, of your own free will, but you've made the choice many times before, and will do so many more times.

In the end, it's all about karma.
Karma? You mean reward in the next life based on behaviors of past life?
Doesn't wash if I don't have free will. If I can't make a choice, then there is no reward. Both were preplanned. It's no more reward than rewarding the saucer by presenting it with a cup.
 

Accountable

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First of all, kudos to Accountable for such a good topic. I believe they can co-exist. I look at destiny as more of a rough outline for whats going to happen in any given persons life. The key points in destiny can not be changed, but the journey to those points are not decided. This is where free will comes into play. Everyone has the free will to do what they want and live life according to their own set of morals.
To sum up my thoughts on this matter: Destiny is the unchangeable outline for ones life. Free will is the path you decide to follow to manifest one's destiny.
Thanks for the kudo. :)


Destiny for a purpose? Are we all coordinated like some kind of electronic football game, all forcibly moving toward a common goal?
 

Accountable

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I've heard people say MLK was destined to die so that we could move toward equality. If that's true, then someone must've been destined to move us toward bigotry.

If such things are predetermined, why do we celebrate them? Why is Obama being elected president a big deal? After all, he would have won whether we voted or not ... except that we had no real choice in our vote, did we?
 

satinbutterfly

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Karma? You mean reward in the next life based on behaviors of past life?
Doesn't wash if I don't have free will. If I can't make a choice, then there is no reward. Both were preplanned. It's no more reward than rewarding the saucer by presenting it with a cup.

Not just in your next life, but this life as well. Why do you need a reward? Is that really why you do something right?
 

Accountable

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I fully believe in my own free will. But that free will is limited/controlled by my experiences, morals, judgment and sense of right and wrong. Sure, I can touch that hot stove if I want since I have free will, but my experience will show me that it's not in my best interest. Because what is free will if it isn't self serving? I prefer to avoid the pain associated with a burn on my hand, so I would exercise my free will not to touch the hot stove.
There are actually many things that can hinder my free will, gravity for one. I can't just jump to the top of a building because I so desire, gravity limits my ability to do so.

Now onto destiny or Predestiny.... I don't believe in destiny as defined in the dictionary as (the predetermined, usually inevitable or irresistible, course of events.) in relation to humans. This is solely a religious belief. Your destiny cannot be predetermined if you are able to change your course at any time along the way... The two don't go together.
It's true that our ability to carry out our will (wills?) is limited by physics. We agree.
 

Accountable

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Not just in your next life, but this life as well. Why do you need a reward? Is that really why you do something right?
Absolutely. I help people because I feel good in the helping. That feeling is my reward. I do mental and semantic acrobatics here in OTZ for the reward of other members' positive responses (or negative ones, come to think of it). If there was no feeling of satisfaction in doing something, or dissatisfaction in not doing it, I wouldn't do it. It wouldn't even occur to me TO do it.
 

michael4168

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Unfortunately, yes in my opinion we are. I hate to be so fatalistic but the only thing we are truly destined to do is die. Kind of a downer, I know. But I do get a certain sense of comfort from this thought. I can't really explain it myself.
 

Tim

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If I read you right, others' free will is their own self control, and to them my self control is free will. So I'll continue calling both free will, if you don't mind.

It seems that astrology assumes that our lives are pre-mapped. If that's true, my actions and emotions are not my own. My crimes are not my fault. Where's the accountability if that is so? Where's the incentive for me to ... well ... do anything at all?? I don't like the idea of being a pawn to be moved around at some anonymous player's whim.

This is not just astrology but many faiths as well. Look at the Christian faith, every moment of you life is written in God's book. He knows everything you will ever do, think, say... the only way this is possible is to have your future predestined... So free will wouldn't apply. If your path in life is already known/set then no matter what you think your doing to change it will only lead you to the predetermined conclusion.
 
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