Believers, without apotheosis, you lie when saying that God exists.

[Greatest I am]

Have you achieved this? Would you say the average Christian has achieved this? My guess is no. I don't really understand what point you are trying to make.

Yes I have and yes, most have not.

In addition, as an Agnostic, the first problem I saw with the first post in this thread is that you started to quote the Bible to reinforce your opinion, then in later posts you spoke of cosmic consciousness or telepathy as the state of mind of those who wrote the scriptures where as far as I know (I am no biblical scholar), the ancient scripts that the bible have been based on, really say no such thing. And if they do say that, there is no way to prove what the authors of ancient scripts were in contact with they were written. They could have simply been high on their drug of choice. Although the Bible is a standard for faith, it is not a standard of proof for any substantive spiritual discussions for anyone but those who have all ready swallowed the bait.

You are right. There is no proof.
That does not take away that it is the claim of the condition of some of the Bible writers to that state.

Ezekiel 37:1
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation 4:2
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Yes the Bible is based on ancient scripts, yes it expresses some good standards, along with bad standards for modern human living, but beyond that, the origin of the ancient texts reveals no proof what so ever, they are the word of "God" or are inspired from telepathic communication with the divine. Is the Bible your standard for truth?

Hell no but it did lead me to God by it's ability to initiate thought.

BTW, I hope we do have spirits and that there is an afterlife after physical death, but I won't ever say I can prove it.

If you had given up the search for God and the proof of an afterlife, you would not likely be here.
Apotheosis is avalable to all.
Seek and ye shall find.

Keep questioning all you hear or read and know that God is not the miracle working super absentee God of the Bible.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

My guess is that if God looked down upon the human race, it would be the thinkers he/she/it would have the most trouble with.

Not so. It would be those who believe that they have found or know God.

Regards
DL

 

[Lord Stanley]

Not so. It would be those who believe that they have found or know God.

Regards
DL

that makes sense to me, i have always thought that finding God must have more to it than the tenuous examples previously give to me

 

[Minor Axis]

Keep questioning all you hear or read and know that God is not the miracle working super absentee God of the Bible.

Regards
DL

I completely agree with you that the God of the Bible has been an absentee Father to the human race. The real question for the questioners is just what and who is God and what role if any does he play in our lives?There is much certainty and uncertainty surrounding the subject. To me it is undetermined at this time.

 

[alice in chains]

i'm fucking irritated at most of the athiests here because you all make such stupid arguments...STOP ARGUING WHAT CHRISTIANS CAN COUNTER.

 

[Greatest I am]

that makes sense to me, i have always thought that finding God must have more to it than the tenuous examples previously give to me

I see the Bibles, all Bibles as the best guess that the ancients could pass ahead.
They are books that are to help us think. They are not meant to give God a name but a direction of inquiry and thought.

Most believers do not think this way.
Much easier to just use a given name than to actually seek God.
I recognize some of the good that churches bring to community but hate the way they present Gods.
Most of their Gods divide us and them whereas the real God is the God of all.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I completely agree with you that the God of the Bible has been an absentee Father to the human race. The real question for the questioners is just what and who is God and what role if any does he play in our lives?There is much certainty and uncertainty surrounding the subject. To me it is undetermined at this time.

The ancients used to say that for proof of God, one had to look to the heavens.
If you see perfection there as I do, then move that perfection to earth and realize that things are perfect here as well, then you will likely find God.

Evolving perfection is hard to discern when men want a sugar daddy God to save people who, good or evil, are perfect.

If you saw my question on Darwin above, would you like to think like him and tell us what you see?
Evolving perfection or imperfection?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

i'm fucking irritated at most of the athiests here because you all make such stupid arguments...STOP ARGUING WHAT CHRISTIANS CAN COUNTER.

Christians shy away from any hard questions. i have been posing this one many times and it is ignored whitch tell me that i have a gotcha question. it is just one of a few that i notice they will not even try to reconcile.

Try it for us.

It concerns the vicarious redemption that Jesus is said to have done with His sacrifice and death.


Posts: 591
11/28/09 05:04:51

patti wrote: Welcome to our board Metacrock. We hope you will stay, share, and discuss your point of view with us. GIA as he is known here is a person I rarely agree with but he is not a spammer. He posts his thoughts and views and is willing to discuss them with anyone who cares to take the time for a discussion. He does belong to many boards and I assume if he has a topic in mind he discusses it with all of those groups. I know I do the same on several of the boards I belong to. Please feel welcome and share your opinions of any topic with us. Patti​

Thank you Patti.
I am used to being called spammer and troll by those who just do not like the questions I pose because they are based on logic and if answered truthfully, go against the usual believers beliefs.

It hurts to change your mind on a belief. It creates thought and most who believe do not want to think. They just want to ride their scapegoat into heaven without having to do the mental work to get there on their own.

Here is an example of what I mean.

Just posted this and I get dead silence or names for it.

I see that none here tried to refute my claim.
I repeat it in search of someone here with morals.
Stop trying to ride a scapegoat into heaven. We are to help carry the cross, not ride it.
That is not a moral position.
Would you teach your children that it is ok to hide behind a child at school who was willing to take his blame for something?
I hope not.
So why do you think it is ok for you to do so?
Two simple questions that you all run from. Truth hurts.
Regards
DL





Care to tell us your view.

Regards
DL

 

[Minor Axis]

Not so. It would be those who believe that they have found or know God.

Regards
DL

I was speaking from the perspective of established religions who expect you to follow and believe in the dogma and the "truth" of the applicable Holy Book without much in the way of questions.

I won' say there is no God, but I will question what is or what God could be. A divine entity, a celestial committee, the Force, (as in Star Wars), parallel universes/existance, something completely beyond comprehension? - lots of possibilities to ponder.

Then there is the problem of just how does your brain interprets your existence. When you meditate and enter a complete sense of well being and bliss, or get a runner's high (which I have experienced) have you touched God or is your brain simply running on a natural high? I've yet to see a real reason to settle on any particular belief. There is no pressing need to commit and at some level I believe if you question and analyze regardless of your conclusions or lack thereof, you are on an approved track to the afterlife.

 

[alice in chains]

I was speaking from the perspective of established religions who expect you to follow and believe in the dogma and the "truth" of the applicable Holy Book without much in the way of questions.

I won' say there is no God, but I will question what is or what God could be. A divine entity, a celestial committee, the Force, (as in Star Wars), parallel universes/existance, something completely beyond comprehension? - lots of possibilities to ponder.

Then there is the problem of just how does your brain interprets your existence. When you meditate and enter a complete sense of well being and bliss, or get a runner's high (which I have experienced) have you touched God or is your brain simply running on a natural high? I've yet to see a real reason to settle on any particular belief. There is no pressing need to commit and at some level I believe if you question and analyze regardless of your conclusions or lack thereof, you are on an approved track to the afterlife.

yap yap...another criticizer of something you don't believe. first off, you can't win an argument against something you're not passionate about personally against someone who is. second off, theists have come to a conclusion through that they have no need to further question. why when we speak of 'god' there always has to be divinity to it? even atheists say this...kind of makes me wonder if the atheists here are actually atheist.

 

[Greatest I am]

I was speaking from the perspective of established religions who expect you to follow and believe in the dogma and the "truth" of the applicable Holy Book without much in the way of questions.

I won' say there is no God, but I will question what is or what God could be. A divine entity, a celestial committee, the Force, (as in Star Wars), parallel universes/existance, something completely beyond comprehension? - lots of possibilities to ponder.

Then there is the problem of just how does your brain interprets your existence. When you meditate and enter a complete sense of well being and bliss, or get a runner's high (which I have experienced) have you touched God or is your brain simply running on a natural high? I've yet to see a real reason to settle on any particular belief. There is no pressing need to commit and at some level I believe if you question and analyze regardless of your conclusions or lack thereof, you are on an approved track to the afterlife.

Questioning is good.
What my questioning did for me was lead me to my apotheosis or rapprochement to God. A cosmic consciousness God. Not to be confused with Bible God.

That touch taught me that there is an afterlife and that we all get there. No choice.
What we are doing here is trying to get a better position, so to speak, in the demographic pyramid of that after life.

It is not a high. There is both pleasure and pain in the contact.
In this world, duty to tell makes it mostly unpleasant after that.

In the beginning of your quest, since our real God is rather bland as compared to the non existing miracle worker is to build your paradigm or world view.

I had to build mine before I could challenge God to show or go out of my thinking all together. He showed.

Like a teacher, It/He waits at the front of the class till the student has the mental fortitude and certainty in his paradigm to hand in his paper. If good he allows contact. If not, not.

Before my contact, I questioned with force, firmness and logic till my religious debaters could be blown away with ease. For a challenge I then argued with myself and this lead me to the answers.

Most believers stop thinking when they think that God is in their book. The book can be a guide and it did help me but that is all it did.

My most important starting point was likely recognizing the perfection of the systems that we live in.
If you want to think on that, try to think like what Darwin would have thought when he reached the Galapagos Islands.

Do you think he thought that he had found evolving perfection or do you think he thought that he had found an imperfect system?

The answer leads to much.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

yap yap...another criticizer of something you don't believe. first off, you can't win an argument against something you're not passionate about personally against someone who is. second off, theists have come to a conclusion through that they have no need to further question. why when we speak of 'god' there always has to be divinity to it? even atheists say this...kind of makes me wonder if the atheists here are actually atheist.

Debates are won with knowledge and skill, not by the passion of the debater. In fact passion may be a drawback.

It is good to critisize things you do not believe.
How else can you find out if you should believe it or confirm your impression that the other should rethink his position because he is wrong.

That is what debate is all about.

Regards
DL

 

[Minor Axis]

yap yap...another criticizer of something you don't believe. first off, you can't win an argument against something you're not passionate about personally against someone who is. second off, theists have come to a conclusion through that they have no need to further question. why when we speak of 'god' there always has to be divinity to it? even atheists say this...kind of makes me wonder if the atheists here are actually atheist.

As evidenced by your response is coming from a strong supporter of "yap yap"... I'm not trying to win any argument. Secondly I'm not a theist. Why you are having trouble grasping the purpose of my participation in this forum?

 

[Minor Axis]

Questioning is good.
What my questioning did for me was lead me to my apotheosis or rapprochement to God. A cosmic consciousness God. Not to be confused with Bible God.

That touch taught me that there is an afterlife and that we all get there. No choice.
What we are doing here is trying to get a better position, so to speak, in the demographic pyramid of that after life.

It is not a high. There is both pleasure and pain in the contact.
In this world, duty to tell makes it mostly unpleasant after that.

In the beginning of your quest, since our real God is rather bland as compared to the non existing miracle worker is to build your paradigm or world view.

I had to build mine before I could challenge God to show or go out of my thinking all together. He showed.

Like a teacher, It/He waits at the front of the class till the student has the mental fortitude and certainty in his paradigm to hand in his paper. If good he allows contact. If not, not.

Before my contact, I questioned with force, firmness and logic till my religious debaters could be blown away with ease. For a challenge I then argued with myself and this lead me to the answers.

Most believers stop thinking when they think that God is in their book. The book can be a guide and it did help me but that is all it did.

My most important starting point was likely recognizing the perfection of the systems that we live in.
If you want to think on that, try to think like what Darwin would have thought when he reached the Galapagos Islands.

Do you think he thought that he had found evolving perfection or do you think he thought that he had found an imperfect system?

The answer leads to much.

Regards
DL

Your discovery of God, would you say it's all in your head? If so, what makes it real? And does it matter if it is real if you believe it? On that level, it's a very personal event but what works for one, does not necessarily work for all.

Regarding Darwin and evolution, I don't know which way he thought. I guess it would depend on what you expected from the system. If the only requirement is that it move forward by it's own development to find it's own equilibrium, you might call it perfect. Of interest is that humans by virtue of their success appears to be an imperfect factor messing up the balance of an otherwise near perfect system.

 

[Greatest I am]

Your discovery of God, would you say it's all in your head?

Not the way you mean, perhaps.

But yes, where else can one receive telepathic communication?

If so, what makes it real?

I believe it was real because I have only had two telepathic experiences in 59 years. The first with my wife and the next with the cosmic consciousness. If the first had not happened and I did not have confirmation of it from my wife. I would doubt the veracity of the second.

And does it matter if it is real if you believe it?

It maters to me. I seek truth, not delusion.

On that level, it's a very personal event but what works for one, does not necessarily work for all.

True. I guarantee nothing because apotheosis is and telepathy is generated by individuals. If they are not mentally ready, they are spinning their wheels trying to reach a God that will not react to them.

Regarding Darwin and evolution, I don't know which way he thought. I guess it would depend on what you expected from the system.

I do not think he expected anything. He was an observer. He was not looking to confirm a theory. He developed it from his observations. He did have some of his theory in mind and may have known how to look.

If the only requirement is that it move forward by it's own development to find it's own equilibrium, you might call it perfect. Of interest is that humans by virtue of their success appears to be an imperfect factor messing up the balance of an otherwise near perfect system.

Evolution does not count the number of species. We just happen to be very successful at survival. That is evolutions goal. Survival of the fittest. Us.

What is imperfect about that?

Regards
DL

 

[alice in chains]

As evidenced by your response is coming from a strong supporter of "yap yap"... I'm not trying to win any argument. Secondly I'm not a theist. Why you are having trouble grasping the purpose of my participation in this forum?

i think you argue for the hell of it. i can see it in you.

 

[Stone]

Believers, without apotheosis, you lie when saying that God exists.
Most believers always parrot their dogma as if it is a known truth to them. This hear sy they believe to be true.
Many claim a personal relationship with their God yet do not claim any apotheosis or personal contact with their God.
This means of course that they believe their WORD/Holy book to be completely true in terms of leading them to their God, although most do not really follow it completely.
Some read literally and begin their belief in God from the standpoint that He does all kids of miracles and is a creator God even though, in Christianity and Islam, this means that their beliefs begin with a talking snake and a God who seems to want to deny man the knowledge that gives us our moral sense.
The knowledge of good and evil.
They see man as somehow complete without a moral sense and see a fall in Genesis when actually it was a fall up to being truly human.
Some believers think that God actually speaks to them, some daily, but when questioned admit to not really hearing God.
Not surprising because the moment someone claims an actual contact, the names and labels start to fly. Ancient prophets were venerated and wrote scripture. Modern prophets are scorned as not quite running on all cylinders. I know this first hand. Oh well.

That aside, I have this pet peeve that says that I never lie. I do not do this for any altruistic reason. I do it because I am somewhat of an absent minded professor and have this fear of being caught in a lie or in saying something that I cannot prove.
Believers tend not to follow this philosophy and to me are lying all the time with their claims of what God is and what he can do, etc.
When I hear such I see that believers have given God all possible attribute taken to their maximums. God is now omni this and omni that and basically omni everything. Creator of all things except of course evil.
This seems to be the only thing that man is said to be omni at.
Better than having absolutely nothing attributed to our creative talent I guess.
This does not agree with sculpture but then many Christians have their own favorite interpretation to the point where Christianity is rather fragmented with many different sects. Oslam is following suite with a variety of cults and beliefs.
The point is that all these believers are saying things that, if in any court of law, would be told to only tell what they know to be absolutely true.
Without an apotheosis believers cannot be 100% sure.
Perhaps this is why no believer has yet to show his faith the way Jesus said they could.
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

The basic question that I would then like to ask is,
When you say that God exists, are you telling a truth that you would swear on a Bible to?
If so, then how can you be sure without an apotheosis?

Regards
DL

Believers, without apotheosis, you lie when saying that God exists.

In your opinion which few seem to agree.

Most believers always parrot their dogma as if it is a known truth to them.

That is a common trait with faith just as you parrot your own dogma at this forum and many other web sites.

Many claim a personal relationship with their God yet do not claim any apotheosis or personal contact with their God.

Christians don't claim apotheosis, period.
That would be sacrilegious and contrary to their beliefs in one God....plus a sign of arrogance and the likely hood of a mental instability.

This means of course that they believe their WORD/Holy book to be completely true in terms of leading them to their God, although most do not really follow it completely.

If perfection is a criteria for salvation, you're in for a shit load of disappointment, GIA.
Mankind is flawed, but many do try to improve themselves. Try it, you might find it quells the intense hatred in your heart.

Some read literally and begin their belief in God from the standpoint that He does all kids of miracles and is a creator God even though, in Christianity and Islam, this means that their beliefs begin with a talking snake and a God who seems to want to deny man the knowledge that gives us our moral sense.

Those would be fundamentalists. IMHO, about as 'round the bend' as you are.

They see man as somehow complete without a moral sense and see a fall in Genesis when actually it was a fall up to being truly human.

And that would be your 'round the bend' moment
Why do you post in such a silly manner?

Some believers think that God actually speaks to them, some daily, but when questioned admit to not really hearing God.
Not surprising because the moment someone claims an actual contact, the names and labels start to fly.

And yet, from a mental health point of view, how is this stranger than you claiming God status through apotheosis and 'howling' insanities through the cabling that links our computers?

Ancient prophets were venerated and wrote scripture. Modern prophets are scorned as not quite running on all cylinders. I know this first hand.

Holy crap, now you're claiming to be a prophet and speak for God.
I suspect you're scorned because someone remembers your support/argument for supplying children with addictive drugs for recreational purposes ....and it's a big stretch to connect that with God's intentions.

That aside, I have this pet peeve that says that I never lie. I do not do this for any altruistic reason. I do it because I am somewhat of an absent minded professor and have this fear of being caught in a lie or in saying something that I cannot prove.
Believers tend not to follow this philosophy and to me are lying all the time with their claims of what God is and what he can do, etc.

I think you're just jealous.

Without an apotheosis believers cannot be 100% sure.

Paraphrased: 'to be a God is 100% surety God exists'.
As I've seen you claim a God can't be omnipotent,
( God being Omnipotent is impossible http://www.offtopicz.net/threads/god-being-omnipotent-is-impossible.56308/ )
thus can't know everything there is to know, your claimed apotheosis is as worthless as your above statement.
If apotheosis can't raise the status of you to an omnipotent God......your whole argument is BS.

 

[Stone]

............................Christians shy away from any hard questions..................................

I see that none here tried to refute my claim........................

Believers, without apotheosis, you lie when saying that God exists.

Looks like I tore up your claim easily with logic.

excerpts from other posts by GIA

Debates are won with knowledge and skill, not by the passion of the debater. In fact passion may be a drawback.

It is good to critisize things you do not believe.
How else can you find out if you should believe it or confirm your impression that the other should rethink his position because he is wrong.

That is what debate is all about.

And yet you get emotional when I debate you with logic rather than passion.

My most important starting point was likely recognizing the perfection of the systems that we live in.
If you want to think on that, try to think like what Darwin would have thought when he reached the Galapagos Islands.

Do you think he thought that he had found evolving perfection or do you think he thought that he had found an imperfect system?

He was thinking of a scientific rationale responsible for the diversity of life he was experiencing.

Evolution does not count the number of species. We just happen to be very successful at survival. That is evolutions goal. Survival of the fittest. Us.

Stick with your bizarre theological diatribes.
I suspect you know little of evolution.
Read this and learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_evolution
Now consider that a changing environment has impact on the processes you just read.
Evolution has no goal......it's a biological response.

 

[Stone]

Main Entry: apo·the·o·sis
Pronunciation: \ə-ˌpä-thē-ˈō-səs, ˌa-pə-ˈthē-ə-səs\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural apo·the·o·ses \-ˌsēz\
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek apotheōsis, from apotheoun to deify, from apo- + theos god
Date: circa 1580
1 : elevation to divine status : deification
2 : the perfect example : quintessence <this is the literary apotheosis of the shaggy dog story — Thomas Sutcliffe>
— apo·the·o·size \ˌa-pə-ˈthē-ə-ˌsīz, ə-ˈpä-thē-ə-\ transitive verb

Contact with God automatically elevates one to be a perfect example.

One cannot touch the mind of God without taking on the attributes of that mind.

It also proves the existence of God. The prophets while--in the spirit--experienced apotheosis.

I would add to the above a rapprochement or getting to know the thinking of God.

Regards
DL

Incredible feats of logic. <sarcasm alert>
You claim in other threads you've been risen to the status of a God through apotheosis.

Contact with God automatically elevates one to be a perfect example.

Now you claim contact with you automatically elevates 'one' to be a ''perfect example''.
"Perfect example" of what? You? God? Both?

There are two distinct contexts to the term 'apotheosis' and you are committing sophistry by combining them into one meaning.......that's a fallacy.

One cannot touch the mind of God without taking on the attributes of that mind.

So far, I haven't seen anyone post with the attributes of your mind.

Obviously, all you've accomplished is one big FAIL.

It also proves the existence of God.

Just noting that you used the singular rather than the plural of God.
It's interesting how you flip flop between using multiple Gods, polytheism, then image a monotheistic version to make your argument.
Corrected, it should have read: 'It also proves the existence of Gods'.
Obviously a tougher sell.

The prophets while--in the spirit--experienced apotheosis.

And by extension, you now claim prophets are Gods.
Sounds like it's getting crowded.

Incredible.

 

[Stone]

Let people believe what they want to believe. I believe theres something bigger to what we can see. as long as they don't thrust it upon your beliefs I don't see the problem. You people who constantly debate the non existance of God are just as bad.

Nice short sighted remark.

Check this and recant if you have half a brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhjIlhAShuU&feature=related

You might also think of 9-11 just to get a balanced view.

Regards
DL

Wow, that was an incredibly arrogant and disparaging comment without even explaining your position other than you don't tolerate others having the privilege of freely acquiring their beliefs without your imposition .


You proselytize as one of the most fervent of fundamentalists. (Gnostic, that is. )

BTW, that video has been pulled.