Atheistic View of Creation

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IntruderLS1

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How do you explain the creation of the cosmos? I've been loosely getting back into astronomy (Thanks a lot BadBoy@ :smiley24:), and as I read the scientific communities rational for the creation of the Universe, I'm struck more than ever with the absurdity of it.

The Big Bang theory is nice in a lot of ways, but it is scientifically impossible according to some of the more basic laws of thermodynamics.

Taking religion completely out of this question, how are you able to put your faith so soundly into something that if looked at with the scientific method legitimately would be discarded immediately as faulty theory?
 
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tonight at noon

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Re: Atheism:

I don't know about the science of it- a bit over my head, but I guess faith is all about belief no matter what...It's more about connecting to who you are than having something proven to you...I'm an athiest, but Faith is a concept we can all understand
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

Well, first of all, there is a ton of evidence suggesting a "big bang". In fact, it was a Christian that first proposed the big bang theory. One major evidence was discovered in 1919 by Edwin Powell Hubble when he was observing the sky that light emitted from distant galaxies was shifted towards the "red" end of the color spectrum. He soon then discovered that the farther away a galaxy was from Earth, the more "red shifted" it appeared to be. These two observations that Hubble discovered were later observed and scrutinized by other scientists and found to be true, and they were later dubbed "Hubble's law". The "red shift" (wavelength) was due to the relative motion, away from the Earth of course, of the distant galaxies. The red shift in galaxy's spectrum increased in proportion to the galaxy's distance from our home planet. Hubble concluded that the further away the galaxy was, the faster was its total motion. He also found that ALL GALAXIES are quickly receding from planet Earth, and from other galaxies as well. So if you use logic for 2 seconds, you will see that if a galaxy was closer to the Earth yesterday, it is farther away today. This concludes that sometime in the very distant past that all matter, logically, must have been in a relatively small area in the universe, relatively small in volume and density.

Also, in 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson that both worked for Bell telephone companies in NJ, both detected very subtle microwave background radiation pervading from the universe IN ALL DIRECTIONS. This microwave activity was later found out to be a sort of "electromagnetic fossil" of the former "big bang". This provided a very good, independent evidence of an expanding universe.

In 1992, The NASA COBE satellite recorded faint, slight asymmetries in the background radiation of the universe. This would explain why matter in the universe is not distributed evenly. This explains that the big bang was not a perfect, everyday, symmetric "explosion". Albert Einstein actually concluded way before any of that that the universe was expanding with general relativity.


Those ^^^^^ are just a few, more simple evidences for the big bang. If you want more, read the wiki article about it. It contains much more independent proofs of it.



Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


On your gripe about physics: Its alllll about the conservation of Mass-Energy. Matter cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed, all it can do is change states. Coal into gas, water into ice, etc etc etc. If a bomb explodes, none of the mass is lost, it simply changes its state, and yadda yadda yadda. So anyways, A lot of this was found out by a French scientist, Antoine Becquerel. He was studying Uranium in his laboratories, and he found that when in close vicinity of his element, energy seemed to appear out of nowhere, and uranium mass seemingly disappeared into thin air, this was discovered to be "natural radioactivity". Einstein came along later, and concluded that no, mass from radioactive elements do not simply "disappear", nor do they arise from "ex nihilo" (out of nothing). He showed that MASS and ENERGY are two in the same, just explain into two different natures. In his most famous equation: E=MC2, Albert created the concept of the conservation of Mass-Energy. This concept actually explain the universe's origins quite well. People such as Dr. Stephen Hawking have introduced such concepts as "vacuum fluctuations", which DO occur naturally in the universe where matter occurs and comes into existence out of basically nothing, a perfect vacuum. He discovered that even in a seemingly EMPTY vacuum (space), where no understood forms of matter or energy exist, there are ALWAYS random, electromagnetic oscillations present in the vacuum of space. These oscillations are now called "vacuum fluctuation energy", which can be converted into matter in complete harmony with the mass energy conservation laws.

"SO WHAT DOES ALL OF THAT JIVE MEAN!?"
you ask? Well, based upon our findings, and since mass-energy can neither be created nor destroyed, logic tells us this: The universe in one form or anther, has ALWAYS existed. There was never ever ever ever a time when the mass-energy that makes up our beautiful universe did NOT exist, if only in the form of a seemingly empty, oscillating vacuum, or a theoretical infinite density known as singularity. At the "big bang", the entirety of the universe was beyond-comprehension-hot, and incredibly dense. The very primitive elements that are now chemical elements could not have possibly survived in such a hot environment, so it is put forth that the ever expanding universe was solely comprised of energy, with matter coming along later and condensing when further expansion away from all the volatile conditions allowed for further cooling where they could thrive.

REGARDLESS OF ITS FORM
, The universe, the sum of all mass-energy, could not come from "ex nihilo", or from nothing in the way that creationists and Intelligent design believers will have you think. There was always the universe, and oscillating vacuum electromagnetism. To believe in "scientific" creationism, is to totally and utterly overlook (or ignore) the law of the conservation of mass-energy. It is the creationist that disregards physics, not the scientist or atheist! ;) IF creationists and Intelligent design advocates have empirical evidence to completely contradict the law of the conservation of mass-energy, which they seemingly propose when they say the big bang came from nothing, I am eagerly waiting for them to share this evidence with the scientific community. Until then, the FUNDAMENTAL doctrine of creationism and Intelligent design, that the universe was created out of nothing by god, MUST BE RECOGNIZED AS PURE THEOLOGY, AND NOT SCIENCE, OR SCIENTIFIC THEORY.




So to answer your question, Scott: how are you able to put your faith so soundly into something that if looked at with the scientific method legitimately would be discarded immediately as faulty theory?

It doesn't take faith to believe in something that has so much evidence behind it. Its simply self-evident. The major problem here is the fact that mist people don't understand the big bang. if you truly understand it, and all the laws surrounding it, then you will realize that it doesn't clash with scientific theory at all. To propose something came from nothing, which the big bang theory does not suggest in anyway, is faulty theory.




FURTHER READING ON EVIDENCES OF THE BIG BANG:

Evidence for the Big Bang

Frequently Asked Questions in Cosmology

WMAP Cosmology 101: Big Bang Tests
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

No no no, you mis-understand my question. I've been into astronomy for a long time, so I know what you're posting here is true. The Universe is expanding, no question. One could back track that expansion to a single point, and then use logic to say ... "Well, it exploded!"

It is my understanding that forms of energy become less complex as they are expelled. How is the universe more complex today than it was on the day of the explosion? I think the proper mumbo-jumbo is entropy. Sceintfically speaking, you cannot EVER expect to place the building materials of an item, and randomly distribute them to form a more complex item.

DNA and RNA sequences are almost imesurably complex. How is it scientifically plausible for these acids to evolve?

If we assume it was somehow possible, (Even though it would take a big jump to do so), how did the Sun in our solar system not destroy these initial building blocks of life instantly? Solar radiation WILL cook them in less than a second if unprotected. Last I checked, instantly is a much shorter period of time than is required for evolution to occur.
 

GraceAbounds

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Re: Atheism:

I don't put faith into science. I do however gain loads of knowledge from science. And just because I know that what the scientific community thinks today may not be the case 10 years from now, does not stop me from from placing value on the information. Science is so fascinating.

I am not an atheist and there for I can not truly speak from the standpoint as one, but I can pretend I am atheist for a moment. So, if I were an atheist I would not put my faith in science like a Christian would put their faith in Christ. I would put my faith in myself. Science would still just be another area/subject in which I drew knowledge from just as it is now as a Christian.
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

No no no, you mis-understand my question. I've been into astronomy for a long time, so I know what you're posting here is true. The Universe is expanding, no question. One could back track that expansion to a single point, and then use logic to say ... "Well, it exploded!"

It is my understanding that forms of energy become less complex as they are expelled. How is the universe more complex today than it was on the day of the explosion? I think the proper mumbo-jumbo is entropy. Sceintfically speaking, you cannot EVER expect to place the building materials of an item, and randomly distribute them to form a more complex item.

DNA and RNA sequences are almost imesurably complex. How is it scientifically plausible for these acids to evolve?

If we assume it was somehow possible, (Even though it would take a big jump to do so), how did the Sun in our solar system not destroy these initial building blocks of life instantly? Solar radiation WILL cook them in less than a second if unprotected. Last I checked, instantly is a much shorter period of time than is required for evolution to occur.

Like I said, the primitive elements were expelled, and when they got cooler, they were in an environment where they evolved (cosmically) into more complex, chemical elements we have today, plus the whole electromagnetic vacuum energy that helps them change. Things change with their environment.

Just because things are complex, like DNA and RNA, people seem to follow this idea the IN NO WAY could they have come about without some...."divine guiding hand". Anyone who anyone that is worth their weight in salt in the scientific community knows that when it comes to biological things such as DNA (something biologically complex), evolution is a very simple, and very evident way of explaining how it came about. Evolution is a very long process of non-random events that happen in small segments, and each of those micro evolutionary segmented processes come together for a very complex end result. Something that is complicated is not that complicated when broken down into smaller parts. So, those little amino acids that formed early on, responded to their environment (measured change) and came together with other smaller things that are needed to form things like DNA and RNA. This culmination of smaller processes and elements make up a very complex, biological machine in the end. Think of it as a car. A car is complex, but once broken down into all of it's small parts, they aren't so complex, UNTIL they come together. Then it is considered (by human standards) to be complex.

Your question about the sun is a good one, but you assume our sun was around when the bang happened. Our sun is an extremely small star and its radioactive influence is not that great relative to much greater suns present in other galexies compared to other suns out there, plus it is INCREDIBLY young, and was not even around when all of this occurred.
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

I don't put faith into science. I do however gain loads of knowledge from science. And just because I know that what the scientific community thinks today may not be the case 10 years from now, does not stop me from from placing value on the information. Science is so fascinating.

I am not an atheist and there for I can not truly speak from the standpoint as one, but I can pretend I am atheist for a moment. So, if I were an atheist I would not put my faith in science like a Christian would put their faith in Christ. I would put my faith in myself. Science would still just be another area/subject in which I drew knowledge from just as it is now as a Christian.
For me, as an atheist, I do not have "faith" in science. I have trust in it. Faith in its most simple definition, is believing without proof. Science provides us proofs, so I trust in science and scientists to reveal truth.
 

TheOriginalJames

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Re: Atheism:

How do you explain the creation of the cosmos? I've been loosely getting back into astronomy (Thanks a lot BadBoy@ :smiley24:), and as I read the scientific communities rational for the creation of the Universe, I'm struck more than ever with the absurdity of it.

The Big Bang theory is nice in a lot of ways, but it is scientifically impossible according to some of the more basic laws of thermodynamics.

Taking religion completely out of this question, how are you able to put your faith so soundly into something that if looked at with the scientific method legitimately would be discarded immediately as faulty theory?

Because it seems a little more than absurd to me that there can be an omnipresent know-all, see-all being who knows what we're going to do before we're born, yet has given us free will to choose our ways.

Hypocrisy sucks.
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

No, that isn't what we were talking about. We're talking about the scientifically accepted idea of the creation, and how it isn't scientifically possible as the theory stands today.

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of the DNA as starting off as something small, and growing in complexity until we have the densly coded strands we have today. But again, speaking strictly from a scientific point of view, this growth in complexity could not happen. Growth of that kind isn't possible. Remember, the Universe is wearing down, not the other way around.

The rough theory's you posed about the sun can't really stand. I know you didn't state them as fact, but my first two thoughts on it were; A) The sun must be getting cooler as it ages, and B) life as we know it would have been destroyed upon the creation of the sun if it were to come later.
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

No, that isn't what we were talking about. We're talking about the scientifically accepted idea of the creation, and how it isn't scientifically possible as the theory stands today.

I understand what you're saying about the evolution of the DNA as starting off as something small, and growing in complexity until we have the densly coded strands we have today. But again, speaking strictly from a scientific point of view, this growth in complexity could not happen. Growth of that kind isn't possible. Remember, the Universe is wearing down, not the other way around.

The rough theory's you posed about the sun can't really stand. I know you didn't state them as fact, but my first two thoughts on it were; A) The sun must be getting cooler as it ages, and B) life as we know it would have been destroyed upon the creation of the sun if it were to come later.
Creation isn't somehting the scientific community accepts as plausible. Only very few fringe scientists believe in creation "science".


No, growth in complexity is possible and it always happens. Like I said, you have to understand how evolution works. Small, segmented changes come together to culminate somehting that is complex. Its basic biological science, and can be seen everywhere, just look at transitory fossils. You're using the watchmaker argument, which is a logical fallacy.

The big bang created everything, our LOCAL sun was born much later on. So all the elements for life to evolve were already there, much like the universe. Our little sun formed and when it did, much later, the basic elements for life to be made were still there in the electromagnetic vacuum. The sun can't destroy that, and the sun helped life to form on Earth.
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

Because it seems a little more than absurd to me that there can be an omnipresent know-all, see-all being who knows what we're going to do before we're born, yet has given us free will to choose our ways.

Hypocrisy sucks.

I would prefer to keep religion out of this discussion. I'm interested in looking at this purely as a skeptical scientist.

I'm not going to pose an alternate theory, and I promise to not bring the 10 Commandments into this anywhere. :D What I want to do is have a legitamate scientific discussion about the facts and thoeies without simply being attacked as a yuckie Creationist. Frankly, this discussion tends to devolve into name calling far sooner than scientific principles are brought into it in most cases. Let's not let that happen here.

I'm looking forward to this. I may actually have to go find reference material!! :D
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

Creation isn't somehting the scientific community accepts as plausible. Only very few fringe scientists believe in creation "science".

Again, I am not pushing creationism. I only want to talk about accepted science and scientific principles. Hard stop.

All Else Failed said:
No, growth in complexity is possible and it always happens. Like I said, you have to understand how evolution works. Small, segmented changes come together to culminate somehting that is complex. Its basic biological science, and can be seen everywhere, just look at transitory fossils. You're using the watchmaker argument, which is a logical fallacy.

I'm not using a watchmaker argument. I'm using thermodynamics as the basis for my questioning. You've talked a lot about these tranisinoal fossiles, but the last time I studied them (proabably over a year ago), there were no transitional fossiles. The best they had at the time was a single hip bone of something that MIGHT have been different than normal, but since they didn't have an example of the further evolved animal, they couldn't say difinitively. Do I need to go back to palientology school for awhile?

All Else Failed said:
The big bang created everything, our LOCAL sun was born much later on. So all the elements for life to evolve were already there, much like the universe. Our little sun formed and when it did, much later, the basic elements for life to be made were still there in the electromagnetic vacuum. The sun can't destroy that, and the sun helped life to form on Earth.

So the idea is that life on earth was here from the first explosion, and was somehow protected from the energy release of the bang via electromagnetic vacuum? I've never heard this before. Does Heizenburg theory come into play here at all?
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

Again, I am not pushing creationism. I only want to talk about accepted science and scientific principles. Hard stop.



I'm not using a watchmaker argument. I'm using thermodynamics as the basis for my questioning. You've talked a lot about these tranisinoal fossiles, but the last time I studied them (proabably over a year ago), there were no transitional fossiles. The best they had at the time was a single hip bone of something that MIGHT have been different than normal, but since they didn't have an example of the further evolved animal, they couldn't say difinitively. Do I need to go back to palientology school for awhile?



So the idea is that life on earth was here from the first explosion, and was somehow protected from the energy release of the bang via electromagnetic vacuum? I've never heard this before. Does Heizenburg theory come into play here at all?
SOME Transitional fossils (because there are thousands):

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ

List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps I am not the one that needs to talk to an archaeologist?




The things necessary for life to BEGIN on Earth were provided through the basic elements that later evolved to make the conditions favorable to life and amino acids after the Earth formed. The sun didn't effect the vacuum because space IS the vacuum. I hardly think the birth of our sun destroy space, did it?

On Heisenberg, are you talking about quantum mechanics as a whole, or a specific part of it?
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

My bad on the name. My brain was feeling all gassy at the time. :p I don't want this to be about religion.

Perhaps a mod would be so kind as to move us over? :)
 

IntruderLS1

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Re: Atheism:

Perhaps I am not the one that needs to talk to an archaeologist?

Easy turbo. I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was commenting on my dated information, not yours. :)

We're kind of getting off track here, but I'll try to bring it in w/ my next post. I'm off to a family thing in a few, so it'll be later tonight.
 

All Else Failed

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Re: Atheism:

Easy turbo. I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was commenting on my dated information, not yours. :)

We're kind of getting off track here, but I'll try to bring it in w/ my next post. I'm off to a family thing in a few, so it'll be later tonight.
Later man, sorry if i was a bit rough there. Happy Holidays to you. :)
 
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