Another Occupy Wall Street Video...

[Stone]

........................



...........I often wonder if the American Revolution had taken place in modern times, how the press would have villified our founding fathers. I've a suspicion the revolution would never have gotten off the ground.

Probably not, the founding fathers weren't proposing a list of entitlements.
Socialism wasn't embraced in the colonies as a political solution.
And ironically, for the most part, the founding fathers were land owners and businessmen, the very core identity that OWS is trying to bring down.

 

[CityGirl]

There goes all your credibility .

If being honest ruins my credibility, so be it. Would that the rest of you would be so forthcoming about how you have arrived to believe the things you believe and would be willing to share any paradigm shifts you may have experienced. I didn't ask a lot of questions but allowed my political beliefs to be framed by my upbringing and my exposure to material limited to that which supported the framework. (Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6)
I know this is how most people I grew up with had their views shaped as well. It is a fact that we seek information that supports our belief systems. It is extremely difficult to distance yourself from your belief systems so that you can better analyze them and how it is you believe what you believe and it is disconcerting, as well. I don't belittle and ridicule anyone who posts in these debate sections and I'm not holding my breath in hopes anyone is going to change their minds. But this I know, because of my participation in other forums, I had a paradigm shift and if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

 

[Stone]

If being honest ruins my credibility, so be it. Would that the rest of you would be so forthcoming about how you have arrived to believe the things you believe and would be willing to share any paradigm shifts you may have experienced. I didn't ask a lot of questions but allowed my political beliefs to be framed by my upbringing and my exposure to material limited to that which supported the framework. (Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6)
I know this is how most people I grew up with had their views shaped as well. It is a fact that we seek information that supports our belief systems. It is extremely difficult to distance yourself from your belief systems so that you can better analyze them and how it is you believe what you believe and it is disconcerting, as well. I don't belittle and ridicule anyone who posts in these debate sections and I'm not holding my breath in hopes anyone is going to change their minds. But this I know, because of my participation in other forums, I had a paradigm shift and if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

If honesty is important to you, why not admit the purpose of OWS is to enhance leftist politics?
Sincerely, you've done a 180 since 2008 and all you've done is go from embracing the radical neo-conservatism of the right wing Bush era to the socialist position of the OWS.
I truly believe there is a lack of critical thinking on your part for going either direction, let alone for flip-flopping.

 

[Stone]

another OWS video



[video=youtube;EW_FCccuv3Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW_FCccuv3Q[/video]

 

[Tim]

If honesty is important to you, why not admit the purpose of OWS is to enhance leftist politics?
Sincerely, you've done a 180 since 2008 and all you've done is go from embracing the radical neo-conservatism of the right wing Bush era to the socialist position of the OWS.
I truly believe there is a lack of critical thinking on your part for going either direction, let alone for flip-flopping.

I seriously don't understand you.

In one post you offer up the Wiki page to prove OWS was started by Adbusters yet you totally ignore what their mission statement was.

"one simple demand—a presidential commission to separate money from politics—we start setting the agenda for a new America."

So does that mean you will only cherry pick what you want to believe to be true and toss the rest?

I'm curious to know where you stand on money in politics. Do you think there is a problem with our politicians being bought and paid for?
This is why I support OWS. It is my number one beef with our country. I don't believe in every idea that comes out of the movement nor should I. But if enough attention can be focused on the money in politics and the crony capitalism that stems from it, to affect change, then I'm all for it.

Or I can stand back like you do and point out every flaw (which there are many) and allow business as usual to continue to destroy our country.

 

[CityGirl]

Probably not, the founding fathers weren't proposing a list of entitlements.
Socialism wasn't embraced in the colonies as a political solution.
And ironically, for the most part, the founding fathers were land owners and businessmen, the very core identity that OWS is trying to bring down.

What does entitlements and socialism have to do with anything I wrote? My point in saying "I often wonder if the American Revolution had taken place in modern times, how the press would have villified our founding fathers. I've a suspicion the revolution would never have gotten off the ground." is that the pursuit of independence was not a popular pursuit and many of those who were pushing for independence from England were viewed as radical, rebellious, anarchist, traitors, etc. There was a large number of the population who were loyal to Mother England and though they didn't agree with many things imposed on the colony, they desired to find a way to resolve those issues without revolution. If the revolutionaries had to deal with our modern media spinning things in favor of the status quo, we would not be an independent nation, today.

 

[Johnfromokc]

evidence that adbusters started OWS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

Geeze...Tim already pointed out this flawed claim so I won't pile on you for this. It's pretty clear you will continue throwing fat pitches like that for any reasonable thinker to blast out of the park. But you really should read what you post as "evidence" before you post more evidence that disproves your claim.

It's self evident from the rioting and violence alone.

The violence is being done by the police 99.9% of the time from all the dozens of video's I've seen. This is a baseless claim.

From what Lasn has been credited as saying about Adbusters and OWS, it would probably be more correct to say anarchy is being used as a tool to promote leftist politics.

An interview with Lasn here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...behind-it-all/2011/10/12/gIQAC81xfL_blog.html

That's two links that disprove what you are claiming. Really, stone, you should actually read these articles before you post them.

 

[Stone]

I seriously don't understand you.

In one post you offer up the Wiki page to prove OWS was started by Adbusters yet you totally ignore what their mission statement was.


So does that mean you will only cherry pick what you want to believe to be true and toss the rest?

I'm curious to know where you stand on money in politics. Do you think there is a problem with our politicians being bought and paid for?
This is why I support OWS. It is my number one beef with our country. I don't believe in every idea that comes out of the movement nor should I. But if enough attention can be focused on the money in politics and the crony capitalism that stems from it, to affect change, then I'm all for it.

Or I can stand back like you do and point out every flaw (which there are many) and allow business as usual to continue to destroy our country.

I seriously don't understand you.

Flipping from supporting corporate socialism to supporting anti-capitalism/socialism is an enormous chasm to jump.
What's so difficult to understand?

In one post you offer up the Wiki page to prove OWS was started by Adbusters yet you totally ignore what their mission statement was.

And I did prove OWS was started by Adbusters.
Doesn't mean their mission statement was any more sincere that the Marxist goal of a utopian anarchy.
Hint....the OWS is also a propaganda machine and truths are infrequent, but just often enough to support the absurd.
I can understand how that would confuse you

So does that mean you will only cherry pick what you want to believe to be true and toss the rest?

You are merely in a state of denial

I'm curious to know where you stand on money in politics. Do you think there is a problem with our politicians being bought and paid for?

Indeed I do and have voiced it, but some here get all hot and bothered when I point out that the OWS isn't addressing the whole problem when they object to my pointing out that Unions also buy influence in politics.
And that makes them hypocrites.
Are you a hypocrite?
Do you back public unions that buy influence with State and Federal politicians?
Yes or no would be fine.
DO you want to address the corruption in the US, or just address that which benefits your political position the most?

If you bothered to actually read my posts, I'm not arguing in defense of any corruption, left/righ...wallstreet/business, union or governmental.

It's just that your position looks like shit because you present your arguments like a .....hypocrite.

I know that sounds offensive, but that's what I'm seeing from you.
A totally leftist approach that ignores it's own corruption.

This is why I support OWS. It is my number one beef with our country. I don't believe in every idea that comes out of the movement nor should I.

You only consider leftist arguments.
By ignoring elements on the left that need correction, you are part of the problem.....just as much as those that argue to ignore issues on the right.

But if enough attention can be focused on the money in politics and the crony capitalism that stems from it, to affect change, then I'm all for it.

Thanks for demonstrating your bias again.
Not by criticizing the corruption in capitalism, but by excluding the union element at the same time.
I am really amazed you haven't come up with a better lefty schtick

Or I can stand back like you do and point out every flaw (which there are many) and allow business as usual to continue to destroy our country.

Reading comprehension seems to be a general affliction with lefties
I'm pointing out your leftist bullshit in supporting a movement designed for leftist political enhancement

 

[Stone]

Geeze...Tim already pointed out this flawed claim so I won't pile on you for this. It's pretty clear you will continue throwing fat pitches like that for any reasonable thinker to blast out of the park. But you really should read what you post as "evidence" before you post more evidence that disproves your claim.



The violence is being done by the police 99.9% of the time from all the dozens of video's I've seen. This is a baseless claim.



That's two links that disprove what you are claiming. Really, stone, you should actually read these articles before you post them.

Let me guess ....your first language isn't English and the printed words have a different meaning for you.

 

[Stone]

What does entitlements and socialism have to do with anything I wrote?..................................................

If you mean to present Jefferson as a supporter of a anti-capitalist/anarchist-pro socialist movement, I'd like to understand how you came to a conclusion that his interests were the same.
I still see no response for your rationalization.

Just chatter and a lot of irrelevant copy and paste.

 

[Tim]

Indeed I do and have voiced it, but some here get all hot and bothered when I point out that the OWS isn't addressing the whole problem when they object to my pointing out that Unions also buy influence in politics.
And that makes them hypocrites.
Are you a hypocrite?
Do you back public unions that buy influence with State and Federal politicians?
Yes or no would be fine.
DO you want to address the corruption in the US, or just address that which benefits your political position the most?

If you bothered to actually read my posts, I'm not arguing in defense of any corruption, left/righ...wallstreet/business, union or governmental.

It's just that your position looks like shit because you present your arguments like a .....hypocrite.

I know that sounds offensive, but that's what I'm seeing from you.
A totally leftist approach that ignores it's own corruption.



You only consider leftist arguments.
By ignoring elements on the left that need correction, you are part of the problem.....just as much as those that argue to ignore issues on the right.


Thanks for demonstrating your bias again.
Not by criticizing the corruption in capitalism, but by excluding the union element at the same time.
I am really amazed you haven't come up with a better lefty schtick



Reading comprehension seems to be a general affliction with lefties
I'm pointing out your leftist bullshit in supporting a movement designed for leftist political enhancement

Wow! You sure do like to jump to conclusions, don't you?

I would love for you to find one instance of me saying I support union lobbying.

I have very clearly stated that I want the money out of politics, on many occasions. Why would you think that I want unions to be able to buy politicians?

One word of advise... please ask me where I stand on an issue before you decide to write a 500 word reply berating me for supporting something that doesn't exist. It will save you a lot of time and effort.

 

[Stone]

Wow! You sure do like to jump to conclusions, don't you?

I would love for you to find one instance of me saying I support union lobbying.

I have very clearly stated that I want the money out of politics, on many occasions. Why would you think that I want unions to be able to buy politicians?

One word of advise... please ask me where I stand on an issue before you decide to write a 500 word reply berating me for supporting something that doesn't exist. It will save you a lot of time and effort.

I would love for you to find one instance of me saying I support union lobbying.

And yet you couldn't answer with a yes or a no when asked what your position is
Trying to hide your hypocrisy with a non answer?

I have very clearly stated that I want the money out of politics, on many occasions. Why would you think that I want unions to be able to buy politicians?

More to the point , you support a movement that's blind to that activity and tend to become emotional when it's pointed out.
The OWS movement and unions are even involved in mutual support.
What else could I surmise other than support of OWS also embraces corrupt influences when it's for mutual benefit?
Two socialistic concepts joining forces for the enhancement of leftist goals.
Corruption in the capitalist sector is one side of the problem, the mechanisms you support for change another part of the problem plaguing the middle class and really, society in general.

All you had to do was additionally denounce the issues created by powerful unions.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ( )......yes/no.....do you support the negative influences and corruption within the Unions?
So simple......yes/no.

One word of advise... please ask me where I stand on an issue before you decide to write a 500 word reply berating me for supporting something that doesn't exist. It will save you a lot of time and effort.

yes or no.....you choose

 

[Stone]

Cripes, getting an honest answer out of you is like pulling chicken's teeth

 

[Alien Allen]

Tim is a union supporter so you should expect his lack of criticism regarding them.

He also claims he is not a democrat

Keep it up Stone and they are going to be calling you a winger pretty soon

 

[Tim]

And yet you couldn't answer with a yes or a no when asked what your position is
Trying to hide your hypocrisy with a non answer?



More to the point , you support a movement that's blind to that activity and tend to become emotional when it's pointed out.
The OWS movement and unions are even involved in mutual support.
What else could I surmise other than support of OWS also embraces corrupt influences when it's for mutual benefit?
Two socialistic concepts joining forces for the enhancement of leftist goals.
Corruption in the capitalist sector is one side of the problem, the mechanisms you support for change another part of the problem plaguing the middle class and really, society in general.

All you had to do was additionally denounce the issues created by powerful unions.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ( )......yes/no.....do you support the negative influences and corruption within the Unions?
So simple......yes/no.



yes or no.....you choose

You never asked me a yes or no question concerning the unions.

NO, I do not support the negative influences and/or corruption within the unions. There is your yes or no answer.

I have also pointed out the fact that I do not support everything that is coming out of the OWS movement. Did you support the Tea Party movement? If you did, does that mean you agreed with everything that was coming out of the movement?

If you still have problems with why I support OWS, maybe this video will help put some of it into perspective for you. This guy captures my view on it pretty well.
[video=youtube_share;i9zkQcLi4Yo]http://youtu.be/i9zkQcLi4Yo[/video]

Cripes, getting an honest answer out of you is like pulling chicken's teeth

Honest answers? Are you trying to imply that I have lied to you anywhere in this discussion? How can my opinions on the topic be untruthful?
Like I have said before, if you want direct answers, ask me direct questions.

Tim is a union supporter so you should expect his lack of criticism regarding them.

He also claims he is not a democrat

Keep it up Stone and they are going to be calling you a winger pretty soon

You are correct, I do support unions, so what? But that doesn't mean that I support the corruption that can go along with it nor does it mean that I support them having undue influence on our elected officials. You make it sound like if someone supports unions, then they must support everything they do and how they do it. Sorry, that's not how the world works. Everything in this world that is good comes with negatives... it's how you manage and negate those negatives that determine if the good is worth it. I have never advocated throwing the baby out with the bathwater in any debate.

 

[Alien Allen]

Unions served our country well over the years. However around the mid 1960's they were exposed for how corrupt they had become. The leaders of the unions are no different than politicians. They use the same playbook and could care little about who they represent. They may have cleaned up some of the corruption to get union leaders in power but still there is a huge problem with the unions being in bed with one political party. That is a huge advantage. If the OWS were to get its way an neuter the ability of business to have any say in what goes on then so much for capitalism anymore.

Even worse is the nature of public employees period. I saw where in one department alone there was one person in a certain section of it. After the stimulus there were over 1000 people suddenly in that section of the department. The only thing I have not determined is if those extra thousand were shifted from somewhere else and already in the govt. But my suspicion is that they probably were new hires. In turn I have to wonder about all the other new hires in govt to oversee all the crap the govt wasted on are going to be in the public sector unions.

 

[The Man]

OWS members appear to be rebel in nature...anything but peaceful.
IMO they are existing bums already milking the system...Lets face it..how can you camp out for weeks at a time unless you already get a check in the mail.
The demands they want are absurd for the most part..rather laughable
They want more from society by way of govt...Rather than a correction of existing faults that exist.
I suspect most have become crushed as their hero Robin Hood had faded from the theater years ago....Victims of their own fantasy if you will.
But yet we have to give them credit.........for getting out there and making ridiculous demands regardless of how stupid they appear in general.
Pride isnt an issue

 

[Stone]

You never asked me a yes or no question concerning the unions.
......................................

WTF are you talking about?
You even quoted my question.
Cripes, reading comprehension issues X ten.

Here is the question I posted and here you are quoting it:
http://www.offtopicz.net/showthread...eet-Video...&p=2040508&viewfull=1#post2040508

Here's the question:

Do you back public unions that buy influence with State and Federal politicians?
Yes or no would be fine.

You don't even bother to read what I post.
How the hell can you even derive intelligent concepts if you don't read the material?

Denial of reality is written all over you...or somthin'....

 

[Stone]

..........................

I have also pointed out the fact that I do not support everything that is coming out of the OWS movement. Did you support the Tea Party movement? If you did, does that mean you agreed with everything that was coming out of the movement?.........................

Nice back peddling

To be clear, since I mentioned it elsewhere, I'll repeat it.........I'm not a member of the Republican Party, I don't support the Tea Party.....
.......and I was intensely anti Bush at a different debate forum.
Alien Allen will attest to that
Palin looks good in black leather and that's probably her only redeeming quality
I'm very anti neocon and I think Straussian philosophy is a pile of shit.
But as you now know, I'm not a socialist sympathizer, either


Hopefully ....you're starting to try and actually read what I post....and comprehend

 

[All Else Failed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMV0TR3pGzg&feature=channel_video_title