Another loss for America?

[Tim]

So the senate passed the bill which contains immunity for the telecom companies for warrant less wire tapping.... It guess it would surprise me if they weren't the fifth largest lobbying group in Washington...
It looks like the House will also cave in and pass the "Protect America Act"

Hell, how can they vote against it with a snappy title like that? Plus the fact that Bush came out yesterday morning starting his address with these words...

"Good morning, at this moment somewhere in this world, terrorists are planning new attacks on this country. Their goal is to bring destruction to the shores of America that will make September 11th pale in comparison."

This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.... they just feed the fear to get what ever they want...


msnbc.com Video Player

 

[Peter Parka]

 

[Pudding Time]

Americans kill more Americans than terrorsits do.

 

[DACS]

Warrant-less wire tapping? Is that actually the telecom companies fault? I dont think they should be accountable for what the govt does.

Although I agree with the sentiments; Terrorism is being used as an excuse for many hidden agendas; and one is unpatriotic for speaking out against it.

ID cards in the UK are an example of terrorism being used as an excuse: We dont know who the terrorists are so how will ID cards help?

 

[Sparkey Duck]

Oh Lord, it just seems to get better and better and better for those opposing civil liberties.

 

[Tim]

Warrant-less wire tapping? Is that actually the telecom companies fault? I dont think they should be accountable for what the govt does.

They are bound to law just as everyone else is. If they are asked to break the law and they do, they are just as guilty as the people asking them to break it.... even if it is the government.

 

[All Else Failed]

Its ok! It's all in the name of THE WAR ON TERROR! You only have to be upset by the curbing of your freedoms if you're an evil doer!

 

[Pudding Time]

Olbermann sums this up quite nicely.

YouTube - 2/14/08 Keith Olberman on FISA Fight

 

[Pudding Time]

And here's a transcript for gLing: (split to fit)

Democrats in the House of Representatives are closing the shop down tonight, until a week from Monday… leaving President Bush twisting slowly in a wind of his own creation.
Our third story on the Countdown: the FISA bill — and the retroactive immunity for the telecom giants that helped Mr. Bush illegally eavesdrop on Americans — will thus just sit there, unacted upon, not even a temporary extension which the Republicans and Mr. Bush refused, despite the President’s threats that if the bill isn’t passed by Saturday, there’d be a breakdown in counter-terrorism surveillance and plagues of locusts and stuff.
A Special Comment, in a moment.
First the details.
House Democrats, in essence, calling the Republicans’ bluff.
They staged a walkout at mid-day… led by John Boehner, who in one act managed the cheesy political theater, and managed to get out just as Representatives were to vote on Contempt of Congress citations against Harriet Miers and Joshua Bolten.
That the Republicans just happened to walk to a stand-full of microphones… pure coincidence.

The President had started all this, with his now-daily message of fear, with what he apparently sees as a threat, to postpone his scheduled trip to Africa.

The House should not leave Washington without passing the Senate bill. I am scheduled to leave tomorrow for a long-planned trip to five African nations. Moments ago, my staff informed the House leadership that I’m prepared to delay my departure, and stay in Washington with them, if it will help them complete their work on this critical bill. The lives of countless Americans depend on our ability to monitor terrorist communications.​

Having lost, he now says he’s going to Africa — another threat, or promise, unfulfilled.
Now, as promised, a Special Comment.
A part of what I will say, was said here on January 31st.

Unfortunately it is both sadder and truer now, than it was, then.

“Who’s to blame?” Mr. Bush also said this afternoon, “Look, these folks in Congress passed a good bill late last summer… The problem is, they let the bill expire. My attitude is: if the bill was good enough then, why not pass the bill again?” ​

You know, like The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.
Or Executive Order 90-66.
Or The Alien and Sedition Acts.
Or Slavery.
Mr. Bush, you say that our ability to track terrorist threats will be weakened and our citizens will be in greater danger.
Yet you have weakened that ability!
You have subjected us, your citizens, to that greater danger!
This, Mr. Bush, is simple enough even for you to understand.
For the moment, at least, thanks to some true patriots in the House, and your own stubbornness, you have tabled telecom immunity, and the FISA act.
You.
By your own terms and your definitions — you have just sided with the terrorists.
You got to have this law or we’re all going to die.
But practically speaking, you vetoed this law.
It is bad enough, sir, that you were demanding an Ex Post Facto law, which could still clear the AT&Ts and the Verizons from responsibility for their systematic, aggressive, and blatant collaboration with your illegal and unjustified spying on Americans under this flimsy guise of looking for any terrorists who are stupid enough to make a collect call or send a mass e-mail.
But when you demanded it again during the State of the Union address, you wouldn’t even confirm that they actually did anything for which they deserved to be cleared.
“The Congress must pass liability protection for companies believed to have assisted in the efforts to defend America.” Believed?
Don’t you know?
Don’t you even have the guts Dick Cheney showed in admitting they did collaborate with you?
Does this endless presidency of loopholes and fine print extend even here?
If you believe in the seamless mutuality of government and big business — come out and say it!
There is a dictionary definition, one word that describes that toxic blend.
You’re a fascist — get them to print you a t-shirt with “fascist” on it!
What else is this but fascism?
Did you see Mark Klein on this newscast last November?
Mark Klein was the AT&T Whistleblower, the one who explained in the placid, dull terms of your local neighborhood I-T desk, how he personally attached all AT&T circuits — everything — carrying every one of your phone calls, every one of your e-mails, every bit of your web browsing into a secure room, room number 641-A at the Folsom Street facility in San Francisco, where it was all copied so the government could look at it.
Not some of it, not just the international part of it, certainly not just the stuff some spy — a spy both patriotic and telepathic — might able to divine had been sent or spoken by — or to — a terrorist.
Everything!
Every time you looked at a naked picture.
Every time you bid on eBay.
Every time you phoned in a donation to a Democrat.
“My thought was,” Mr. Klein told us last November, “George Orwell’s 1984. And here I am, forced to connect the big brother machine.”
And if there’s one thing we know about Big Brother, Mr. Bush, is that he is — you are — a liar.

 

[Pudding Time]

“This Saturday at midnight,” you said today, “legislation authorizing intelligence professionals to quickly and effectively monitor terrorist communications will expire. If Congress does not act by that time, our ability to find out who the terrorists are talking to, what they are saying, and what they are planning, will be compromised…You said that “the lives of countless Americans depend” on you getting your way.
This is crap.
And you sling it, with an audacity and a speed unrivaled even by the greatest political felons of our history.

Richard Clarke — you might remember him, sir, he was one of the counter-terror pro’s you inherited from President Clinton, before you ran the professionals out of government in favor of your unreality-based reality — Richard Clarke wrote in the Philadelphia Inquirer:

“Let me be clear: Our ability to track and monitor terrorists overseas would not cease should the Protect America Act expire. If this were true, the president would not threaten to terminate any temporary extension with his veto pen. All surveillance currently occurring would continue even after legislative provisions lapsed because authorizations issued under the act are in effect up to a full year.”​

You are a liar, Mr. Bush, and after showing some skill at it, you have ceased to even be a very good liar.
And your minions like John Boehner — your Republican congressional crash dummies who just happen to decide to walk out of Congress when a podium-full of microphones await them — they should just keep walking, out of Congress and if possible, out of the country.
For they — and you, sir — have no place in a government of the people, by the people, for the people.
The lot of you, are the symbolic descendants of the despotic middle managers of some banana republic, to whom “Freedom” is an ironic brand name, a word you reach for, when you want to get away with its opposite.
Thus, Mr. Bush, your panoramic invasion of privacy is dressed up as “protecting America.”
Thus, Mr. Bush, your indiscriminate domestic spying becomes the focused monitoring, only of “terrorist communications.”
Thus, Mr. Bush, what you and the telecom giants have done, isn’t unlawful, it’s just the kind of perfectly legal, passionately patriotic thing for which you happen to need immunity!
Richard Clarke is on the money, as usual.
That the President was willing to veto this eavesdropping, means there is no threat to the legitimate counter-terror efforts underway.

As Senator Kennedy reminded us in December:

“The President has said that American lives will be sacrificed if Congress does not change FISA. But he has also said that he will veto any FISA bill that does not grant retroactive immunity. ​

No immunity, no FISA bill. So if we take the President at his word, he’s willing to let Americans die to protect the phone companies.”​

And that literally cannot be.
Even Mr. Bush could not overtly take a step that actually aids the terrorists.
I am not talking about ethics here.
I am talking about blame.
If the President seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it means we can safely conclude… there is no baby.
Because if there were, sir, now that you have vetoed an extension of this eavesdropping, if some terrorist attack were to follow…
You would not merely be guilty of siding with the terrorists…
You would not merely be guilty of prioritizing the telecoms over the people…
You would not merely be guilty of stupidity…
You would not merely be guilty of treason, sir…
You would be personally, and eternally, responsible.
And if there is one thing we know about you, Mr. Bush, one thing that you have proved time and time again… it is that you are never responsible.
As recently ago as 2006, we spoke words like these with trepidation.
The idea that even the most cynical and untrustworthy of politicians in our history — George W. Bush — would use the literal form of terrorism against his own people — was dangerous territory. It seemed to tempt fate, to heighten fear.
We will not fear any longer.
We will not fear the international terrorists — we will thwart them.
We will not fear the recognition of the manipulation of our yearning for safety — we will call it what it is: terrorism.
We will not fear identifying the vulgar hypocrites in our government — we will name them.
And we will not fear George W. Bush.
Nor will we fear because George W. Bush wants us to fear.

 

[Maulds]

And people say Fox News is biased...sheesh

 

[Pudding Time]

And people say Fox News is biased...sheesh

Please explain how Olbermann is biased.

 

[dt3]

So where's the Democratic majority that was supposed to stop things like this?

 

[Maulds]

His hatred of Bush is so obvious in his choice of words and his manner of speaking if you can't see and hear it then theres no way I can make it make sense to you

 

[All Else Failed]

So where's the Democratic majority that was supposed to stop things like this?

They're too busy being American: Not caring.

 

[Pudding Time]

His hatred of Bush is so obvious in his choice of words and his manner of speaking if you can't see and hear it then theres no way I can make it make sense to you

Yeah he hates Bush, but that doesn't make him bias against him. Everything he has to say about Bush is true.

 

[Maulds]

They're too busy being American: Not caring.

I'm just asking but is there anything about this country you actually like?

 

[Maulds]

Yeah he hates Bush, but that doesn't make him bias against him. Everything he has to say about Bush is true.

My point was that everyone screams about bias in the media (either way) but Olbermann makes no attempt to hide his hatred of Bush and Republicans. Why no outcry toward him...just Fox News.

 

[Pudding Time]

My point was that everyone screams about bias in the media (either way) but Olbermann makes no attempt to hide his hatred of Bush and Republicans. Why no outcry toward him...just Fox News.

Because as I said, he speaks the truth. Fox, meh, not so much.

Olbermann has been known to take it to the Democrats also.

 

[All Else Failed]

I'm just asking but is there anything about this country you actually like?

A lot of things.


Like: Saving 15% or more on my car insurance because of Geico.




Protip: You can like you country and still be a critic of it.