9.8 trillion!

Users who are viewing this thread

JanieDough

V.I.P User
Messages
14,684
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.01z




Now I know Obama is not helping, but he didn't exactly inherit a kingdom now did he?

How do you guys reconcile this?

Do you think it's all Obama? Or it's all Bush? Or it's a mix between the two?

I myself think we need smarter people in the executive bureaucracy since they are the ones behind the curtains.

I mean holy shit - 9.8 trillion???

Does anyone think this is a good idea? That we can even survive from this?


hint...you can click the quote to link to an article.
 
  • 40
    Replies
  • 1K
    Views
  • 0
    Participant count
    Participants list

retro

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,886
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I think it was started with the fiscal irresponsibility and smoke and mirrors played by the Clinton administration, then Bush took that and with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, made it worse, and Obama has taken over and blown the other two completely out of the water.
 

retro

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,886
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
good answer. so what do you think we should do?

:24:

Now that's a fucking loaded question. But, here are my thoughts on the matter, and in no particular order.

Abolish the U.S. Tax Code and move to a FairTax system, which is a consumption tax on retail goods. With such a system, you're basically eliminating almost all of the tax loopholes that people use all the time, putting more money into the hands of the consumer.

Mandate a balanced budget. If American citizens are expected to live within their means, then the government should be expected and required to do so as well. Cut wasteful spending and eliminate the earmarks.

Shift Social Security from a mandated government program to a privatized one. Allow people to use the money for their retirement in the way that they choose, whether it be IRA's, 401K, stocks, bonds, what have you. I shouldn't have a portion of my paycheck taken from me in order to pay money to someone else, because when the time comes for me to be eligible to receive that same money, it isn't going to be there. Social Security is a wholly insolvent system that the government has used (ie: the Clinton administration) to fund projects and claim budget "surpluses". It's a Ponzi scheme, nothing more, and it's about to topple anyway.

Abolish Medicare completely, and put the power into the hands of the states where it belongs

The Tenth Amendment said:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Health care is not something that is delegated to the United States government by the Constitution. Therefore it is, by definition, a State's Rights issue. States have MediCaid, and MediCare should not exist as far as I'm concerned.

Bring the troops home. Now, this is something of a rallying cry you hear all the time, but I'm not just speaking of those in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm talking about all of them, or at least a vast majority. We have 27 bases in Germany alone, overkill much? I realize that these were strategic bases after WWII and during the height of the Cold War, but enough is enough. Reduce the number of bases we have overseas by at least 75%, leaving only strategically advantageous bases in operation, and close down everything else. There are tons of military bases in the United States that were closed down during the Clinton administration, if need be, they could be re-opened or existing bases expanded.

Non-interventionism. The United States should no be the world's police force, plain and simple. Stop spending money sending our military here there and everywhere. It isn't as bad now (with Iraq and Afghanistan the exceptions) as it has been, but it needs to stop. Take care of our own country and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. Get involved only when absolutely necessary, and if/when we do get involved, actually declare a state of war for once.

Restructure the military. The military is currently set up to flat out overwhelm any other force in conventional combat. Unfortunately, in the 21st century, conventional warfare has gone out the window. We need to shift away from massive troop movements to smaller strike forces designed for the type of war we see today, not the type of war we saw during the 20th century. This involves not only troops, but development of new technology, to make things more efficient. I'm by no means a military strategist, but this is common sense I think.

Stop making it so damn hard to run a business in this country. With taxes, regulations, requirements, more taxes, fees, and everything else, it's incredibly hard to start a business in this country. At least to start a business and make it last. Here in California, it's doubly bad, because of all of the ridiculous hoops you have to jump through out here. Give companies incentive to stay around and not shift overseas... and no, I'm not talking about government handouts, contracts, or credits... I'm just talking about giving them a reason to stay, by making it easier to start and manage a business.

Eliminate the Federal Reserve. I could probably go on and on about this, but I'll simply refer you to Ron Paul's book, End The Fed. Since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, the dollar has inflated to ridiculous levels. What $1 would buy in 1913, it would take ~$21 to purchase in 2010, that's a 2100% increase. The fact that one organization has such power over not only the U.S. Economy, but the World's as well, is wholly frightening to me.

Term limits. It's time to see some term limits in Congress. I'm sick and tired of seeing career politicians. Seriously, the people in the House and Senate that have been there for 30+ years just disgust me. Because they don't really care about their constituents (well, I'm willing to bet most of them anyway), they simply care about getting reelected every 2 or 6 years. This is why we see so many damn earmarks in my opinion. They create these special pet projects and get them added onto bills in order to please their constituents enough to get themselves reelected.

Reduce the size of government. It's shameful that the government's idea of creating new jobs seems to oftentimes simply mean create more government jobs, which simply perpetuates the problem of not having enough money to pay for everything. Promote privatization, entrepreneurship, and let the private sector create jobs. We should be making government smaller, not larger.

I've ranted and raved for way too long now at this point, :24: But honestly what it really comes down to is fiscal responsibility. We *have* to stop spending more than we bring in, and if that means cutting projects, then cut the damn projects. The era of big government simply has to end, because it is totally and completely unsustainable.
 

Accountable

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,962
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.00z
:24:

Now that's a fucking loaded question. But, here are my thoughts on the matter, and in no particular order.

Abolish the U.S. Tax Code and move to a FairTax system, which is a consumption tax on retail goods. With such a system, you're basically eliminating almost all of the tax loopholes that people use all the time, putting more money into the hands of the consumer.
Good idea so long as we don't let them make it a value-added tax. The Brits have that, where the tax is calculated into the price. It's too easy to forget how much of a kickback the gov't is getting, and too easy for the gov't to raise the tax rate without much hoopla.

Mandate a balanced budget. If American citizens are expected to live within their means, then the government should be expected and required to do so as well. Cut wasteful spending and eliminate the earmarks.
Yup yup! I'd cut out omnibus bills as well.

Shift Social Security from a mandated government program to a privatized one. Allow people to use the money for their retirement in the way that they choose, whether it be IRA's, 401K, stocks, bonds, what have you. I shouldn't have a portion of my paycheck taken from me in order to pay money to someone else, because when the time comes for me to be eligible to receive that same money, it isn't going to be there. Social Security is a wholly insolvent system that the government has used (ie: the Clinton administration) to fund projects and claim budget "surpluses". It's a Ponzi scheme, nothing more, and it's about to topple anyway.
SS is a ponzi scheme of the first order and needs to go. We have welfare for those who can't support themselves.

Abolish Medicare completely, and put the power into the hands of the states where it belongs
AMEN!


Health care is not something that is delegated to the United States government by the Constitution. Therefore it is, by definition, a State's Rights issue. States have MediCaid, and MediCare should not exist as far as I'm concerned.
This can probably be said for over half the federal gov't. Imagine how small the Washington bureaucracy would be if it only did what was delegated to it.

Bring the troops home. Now, this is something of a rallying cry you hear all the time, but I'm not just speaking of those in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm talking about all of them, or at least a vast majority. We have 27 bases in Germany alone, overkill much? I realize that these were strategic bases after WWII and during the height of the Cold War, but enough is enough. Reduce the number of bases we have overseas by at least 75%, leaving only strategically advantageous bases in operation, and close down everything else. There are tons of military bases in the United States that were closed down during the Clinton administration, if need be, they could be re-opened or existing bases expanded.
I agree, except we should not have any bases on foreign soil. I think that the powers-that-were looked at the Cold War military and realized that it had become one of America's biggest jobs programs. Trimming it down to the size it should be would be painful, and politicians who create pain usually don't get re-elected. I believe that's why it remains as large as it is.

Non-interventionism. The United States should no be the world's police force, plain and simple. Stop spending money sending our military here there and everywhere. It isn't as bad now (with Iraq and Afghanistan the exceptions) as it has been, but it needs to stop. Take care of our own country and let the rest of the world take care of themselves. Get involved only when absolutely necessary, and if/when we do get involved, actually declare a state of war for once.
Absolutely. We would throw fits if another country moved in and established a military installation on American soil, restricting access to only that country's military and local citizens it hires to work there. Yet we think we have the right to do exactly that in countries all over the world.

Restructure the military. The military is currently set up to flat out overwhelm any other force in conventional combat. Unfortunately, in the 21st century, conventional warfare has gone out the window. We need to shift away from massive troop movements to smaller strike forces designed for the type of war we see today, not the type of war we saw during the 20th century. This involves not only troops, but development of new technology, to make things more efficient. I'm by no means a military strategist, but this is common sense I think.
If we did as you suggest in the previous 2 paragraphs, this would be a given.


Stop making it so damn hard to run a business in this country. With taxes, regulations, requirements, more taxes, fees, and everything else, it's incredibly hard to start a business in this country. At least to start a business and make it last. Here in California, it's doubly bad, because of all of the ridiculous hoops you have to jump through out here. Give companies incentive to stay around and not shift overseas... and no, I'm not talking about government handouts, contracts, or credits... I'm just talking about giving them a reason to stay, by making it easier to start and manage a business.
Larger established businesses pay politicians to set up these onerous regulations. It helps keep competition to a minimum .... hardly the American Way, is it?

Eliminate the Federal Reserve. I could probably go on and on about this, but I'll simply refer you to Ron Paul's book, End The Fed. Since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, the dollar has inflated to ridiculous levels. What $1 would buy in 1913, it would take ~$21 to purchase in 2010, that's a 2100% increase. The fact that one organization has such power over not only the U.S. Economy, but the World's as well, is wholly frightening to me.
Did I write this post in my sleep and forget about it? :D
Tying the Dollar back to gold or some other hard currency would force Congress to be fiscally responsible. That's why they fight it so hard.

Term limits. It's time to see some term limits in Congress. I'm sick and tired of seeing career politicians. Seriously, the people in the House and Senate that have been there for 30+ years just disgust me. Because they don't really care about their constituents (well, I'm willing to bet most of them anyway), they simply care about getting reelected every 2 or 6 years. This is why we see so many damn earmarks in my opinion. They create these special pet projects and get them added onto bills in order to please their constituents enough to get themselves reelected.
Many actually see it as their job to bring in as much revenue as possible, then scoop out as much as they can & send it to their states. It really is disgusting. From Each as much as we can squeeze from ya, To Each in proportion to his political contribution.

Reduce the size of government. It's shameful that the government's idea of creating new jobs seems to oftentimes simply mean create more government jobs, which simply perpetuates the problem of not having enough money to pay for everything. Promote privatization, entrepreneurship, and let the private sector create jobs. We should be making government smaller, not larger.
This would be a natural result of following your earlier suggestion.

I've ranted and raved for way too long now at this point, :24: But honestly what it really comes down to is fiscal responsibility. We *have* to stop spending more than we bring in, and if that means cutting projects, then cut the damn projects. The era of big government simply has to end, because it is totally and completely unsustainable.
Excellent post! :clap:clap:clap

To answer your opening question, Janie, I don't think it's all Bush or all Obama. People keep forgetting that we're not a monarchy. The President is not wholly in charge. Congress holds the purse strings, and the politicians in Congress have had their fat asses in those same leather chairs through both administrations.
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.02z
I love Fareed Zakaria's (<-link to his solution) outlook on foreign policy and politics. His solution is a VAT- value added Tax. It would work, no questions. The problem? Politicians who are too afraid to 1) ask the public to pay (to keep their careers alive) or 2) mislead the tax payers into thinking they can have something for nothing. The 3rd problem are the taxpayers themselves who actually think they can have something for nothing and go along with the Republicans who offer to lower their taxes, just don't ask questions about who will benefit most and what services you expect your government to provide.

I think this country is in real trouble. Most likely there will never be a super majority party that can simply push their agenda through. We need our elected officials to compromise, one of the vital standards for national leadership since there has been a nation. If you are old enough to remember there was a time in the 1970's and before when Republicans and Democrats actually (gasp!) worked together. But if you want to blame someone it's easy to lay the fault on the Republican party who has veered sharply to the right in the last 30 years. This is not opinion, it's fact.

As long as each side squares off and refuses to work together we are in DEEP SHIT as a nation. I realize the Democrats are flawed, but lately there has been evidence of ideas that Republicans support, but once Obama support their idea, then they change their minds and no longer support their own ideas. The tactic is not to allow Obama to succeed in anything. How cynical can they get? In the quest for political dominance, they are more than willing to destroy the prosperity that the majority used to enjoy in this country. :yuk
 
Last edited by a moderator:

retro

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,886
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.00z
I love Fareed Zakaria's (<-link to his solution) outlook on foreign policy and politics. His solution is a VAT- value added Tax. It would work, no questions. The problem? Politicians who are too afraid to 1) ask the public to pay (to keep their careers alive) or 2) mislead the tax payers into thinking they can have something for nothing. The 3rd problem are the taxpayers themselves who actually think they can have something for nothing and go along with the Republicans who offer to lower their taxes, just don't ask questions about who will benefit most and what services you expect your government to provide.

So wait, you're advocating a VAT on top of the ridiculous income taxes we have already? Yes, I realize that our taxes are lower than other countries, and in the article he said to "lower income tax rates to compensate". But still, the idea of federal income taxes, state income taxes (except in those few states that don't have them), and a VAT is more than a little hard to swallow. It's double jeopardy for the federal government, first we're going to tax your income before you ever see a penny, and then when you get your money, we're going to tax you another 18% of the purchase price of whatever you buy. It has to be one or the other, even by dropping income taxes by 15%, it's still going to end up in more net taxation for the American people, which will give them less money to save.
 

dt3

Back By Unpopular Demand
Messages
24,161
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.21z
And the award for first mention of political parties goes to Minor Axis. Again.

You simply refuse to have these discussions without making sure everybody knows we need to blame Republicans, don't you?

Out of all the questions in the OP, not a single one asks which party to blame. Of course why should we let a little thing like discussing solutions to get in the way of assigning blame? Everybody knows you can't fix something until we all know who broke it. :rolleyes:
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.02z
So wait, you're advocating a VAT on top of the ridiculous income taxes we have already? Yes, I realize that our taxes are lower than other countries, and in the article he said to "lower income tax rates to compensate". But still, the idea of federal income taxes, state income taxes (except in those few states that don't have them), and a VAT is more than a little hard to swallow. It's double jeopardy for the federal government, first we're going to tax your income before you ever see a penny, and then when you get your money, we're going to tax you another 18% of the purchase price of whatever you buy. It has to be one or the other, even by dropping income taxes by 15%, it's still going to end up in more net taxation for the American people, which will give them less money to save.

I did not expect any of the conservatives in this forum to jump on board with such an idea because paying taxes is always bad. ;)

And the award for first mention of political parties goes to Minor Axis. Again.

When the problem is so obvious, when you look at who and what controls the process in this country, when you look at how political most members of this forum are, you are suggesting such a conversation can be had without mentioning political parties? If you want to have an abstract philosophical discussion, no problem. If you want to apply the conjured solutions of such a conversation to our situation, then politics is integral to any solution you think has a chance of working.

Democrats and Republicans used to work together. Now they don't. So who would you like to blame? :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
I think it was started with the fiscal irresponsibility and smoke and mirrors played by the Clinton administration, then Bush took that and with the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, made it worse, and Obama has taken over and blown the other two completely out of the water.

It actually started with Reagan, he was the worst of the bunch
 

dt3

Back By Unpopular Demand
Messages
24,161
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.21z
I did not expect any of the conservatives in this forum to jump on board with such an idea because paying taxes is always bad. ;)



When the problem is so obvious, when you look at who and what controls the process in this country, when you look at how political most members of this forum are, you are suggesting such a conversation can be had without mentioning political parties? If you want to have an abstract philosophical discussion, no problem. If you want to apply the conjured solutions of such a conversation to our situation, then politics is integral to any solution you think has a chance of working.

Democrats and Republicans used to work together. Now they don't. So who would you like to blame? :)
My point is that the blame game is useless. The time for making excuses is over, and we need to work on the solution. Maybe it's not as big of a deal on a forum as in real life, but I'm sick of hearing "we inherited this defecit" and "we need to spend this money or hell will freeze over" and "it's somebody else's fault". The problems are obvious to anyone who looks. What's the solution? How we got here is something to reflect on AFTER the problem is solved.
 

MoonOwl

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,573
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.01z
What about Nixon & China?

I just love hearing about China's new Middle Class as ours is going down the crapper.....

I remember hearing about a quote from Bush Sr. saying if the American people knew what we've done they'd hunt us down in the streets... I always wondered what that was in reference to...............

One things for sure. This has been going on slowly, piece by piece for quite a long time. Both sides complicit.

After all, frogs brought to a long, slow boil never jump out of the pot.
 

Tim

Having way too much fun
Valued Contributor
Messages
13,518
Reaction score
43
Tokenz
111.11z
My point is that the blame game is useless. The time for making excuses is over, and we need to work on the solution. Maybe it's not as big of a deal on a forum as in real life, but I'm sick of hearing "we inherited this defecit" and "we need to spend this money or hell will freeze over" and "it's somebody else's fault". The problems are obvious to anyone who looks. What's the solution? How we got here is something to reflect on AFTER the problem is solved.

But you need to know the past and where things went wrong to get it right now.

Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

And the fact that everyone sees the past through partisan glasses adds to the problem.

After all, frogs brought to a long, slow boil never jump out of the pot.

Actually they do :D
 

dt3

Back By Unpopular Demand
Messages
24,161
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.21z
But you need to know the past and where things went wrong to get it right now.



And the fact that everyone sees the past through partisan glasses adds to the problem
I think that's just an overused cliche. :dunno

If I wake up tomorrow and magically owe more than I make in a year, do I really need to know why I'm in the situation or do I need to sit down and figure out how to dig myself out? Which is more productive in the near-term?

If it was a situation that I caused, by recklessly spending and charging it, then it would help me to understand my past habits.

But this administration has repeatedly said they inherited the problem, they didn't cause it. So who cares how it happened? Fix it. The time for blame and causes is AFTER it's fixed, especially in such a dramatically important situation as this.
 

Minor Axis

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,294
Reaction score
0
Tokenz
0.02z
My point is that the blame game is useless. The time for making excuses is over, and we need to work on the solution. Maybe it's not as big of a deal on a forum as in real life, but I'm sick of hearing "we inherited this defecit" and "we need to spend this money or hell will freeze over" and "it's somebody else's fault". The problems are obvious to anyone who looks. What's the solution? How we got here is something to reflect on AFTER the problem is solved.

I'm all for solutions.

Ok, who in Congress is working for the common good? Who is willing to compromise and who is insisting on ideological purity before they will agree to anything? I'm not insinuating anyone or party in particular, just asking. These are the people who can make progress happen or keep it from happening. Whoever you think is responsible, if it is your perception they are the ones standing in the way of progress, what then?

BTW, it has been argued that the Great Depression whose effects lasted 10 years, happened because of a sit on their thumbs government who just let it play out. I'm sure the small government types will insist, that was the best course, but it's debatable, you have to admit it.

With this country divided pretty close to the middle, I'll restate my premise. If we can't find a way to work together and compromise, we are in deep shit. Ideology purity is going to sink us.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JanieDough

V.I.P User
Messages
14,684
Reaction score
1
Tokenz
0.01z
My point is that the blame game is useless. The time for making excuses is over, and we need to work on the solution. Maybe it's not as big of a deal on a forum as in real life, but I'm sick of hearing "we inherited this defecit" and "we need to spend this money or hell will freeze over" and "it's somebody else's fault". The problems are obvious to anyone who looks. What's the solution? How we got here is something to reflect on AFTER the problem is solved.

:clap:clap:clap




and retro I am at work, but I will respond to your post later. Thank you guys for having a civil informative discussion. I am trying to get back into caring. I used to be one hell of a debater, but I just am out of the loop lately.
 
78,875Threads
2,185,391Messages
4,959Members
Back
Top