I'm beginning to see John's views on the police

[Natasha]

One can roll to his side very easily while on the stomach....

No one can not. If you are basically "hogtied" it is VERY difficult to roll over to your side. It's one of the first things we were taught in EMT school...if PD has the patient hogtied never EVER transport them like that b/c they will die on you.

 

[Jackass master]

Deputies placed on administrative leave
Sheriff: Investigation of New Market man’s death nearly complete
Originally published February 20, 2013


By Brian Englar
News-Post Staff

Frederick County Sheriff Chuck Jenkins has placed three deputies on paid administrative leave pending results of an investigation into the in-custody death of a man with Down syndrome.Jenkins said he decided over the weekend to place Lt. Scott Jewell, a 23-year veteran of the department, Sgt. Rich Rochford, a 16-year veteran, and Deputy First Class James Harris, a 10-year veteran, on paid leave.
Jenkins said he made the move based on "the totality of the circumstances" after speaking with investigators and meeting with the family of Robert Ethan Saylor, 26, of New Market, who died of asphyxia after being removed from a Frederick movie theater. The Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Baltimore ruled the death a homicide.
"I looked at what was in the best interest of the public, the family and the deputies," Jenkins said. "I lost a lot of sleep over this."
Saylor died Jan. 12 after he was forcibly removed from the Regal Cinemas Westview Stadium 16. Employees said Saylor refused to either leave the theater or buy another ticket after seeing a movie.
Saylor resisted the deputies and was briefly handcuffed, according to the sheriff's office, which called the circumstances leading up to his death a medical emergency.
The deputies removed the handcuffs from Saylor, and emergency medical personnel were called. Saylor was taken to Frederick Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
The deputies were off-duty and working secondary employment for Hill Management. Representatives of Hill Management have not responded to numerous requests for comment.
Jenkins announced the decision to place the deputies on leave in a letter posted on the sheriff's office's Facebook page Monday evening.
"Because of my very serious concerns for the messages posted by the public on Facebook and other social media sites, I feel it is only appropriate as the head of this agency to respond as much and as respectfully as possible to your concerns," the letter states in part. "First, I do understand the negative outcry and frustration by those who have expressed their concerns about the death of Mr. Robert Saylor. The death of Mr. Saylor was very tragic and I want to assure everyone that a thorough investigation is being conducted."
There were 761 comments on the Facebook post containing the letter as of 3:45 p.m. Tuesday. Some expressed support, but the majority criticized the deputies and the sheriff's office.
The sheriff's office has been flooded with phone calls expressing concerns about the in-custody death, as well as some showing support. The volume of calls led to the sheriff's decision to put personnel in place Tuesday to field the inquiries, spokeswoman Cpl. Jennifer Bailey said. Bailey estimated that between 35 and 50 calls came in Monday and an additional 30 as of about 4 p.m. Tuesday.
"We wanted to make sure people who called in with a concern were able to talk to someone," Bailey said. "We want people to know we are taking this very seriously."
Bailey said she and Jenkins have been returning the calls of those who left voice mails containing their phone numbers.
The investigation is "99 percent" complete, with investigators needing to conduct a few follow-up interviews and receive the report from the medical examiner's office, Jenkins said. The results will be forwarded to the Frederick County State's Attorney's Office, which could make the decision on its own whether to pursue charges or take the case to a grand jury.
Jenkins said he would like to see the case go before a grand jury in the interest of transparency.
"I think it's in the best interest of everyone to go ahead and present this to the grand jury," he said. "We want full disclosure."
The deputies were not in uniform, but they were carrying their agency-issued sidearms and radios. Jenkins said deputies working secondary employment assume their duties as law enforcement officers when the situation calls for it, something he said has long been a source of concern for him.
"I'm always worried when deputy sheriffs are out working secondary employment because it has the potential to put them in these types of situations," he said.
Under the Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights, agencies cannot prohibit officers from taking secondary employment, but they can put reasonable regulations in place. The sheriff's office requires Hill Management to carry $1 million in liability coverage.
The sheriff's office, as well as Hill Management and even the state of Maryland, could be liable in the event of a lawsuit filed by Saylor's family, Jenkins said.
"It becomes very complicated when it comes to liability," he said.

 

[Natasha]

Unfortunately we're not going to get any ACTUAL details about what happened until the investigation is over. And I agree that they represent the department they work for, even when off duty. Off duty work isn't something that you can do on your own w/o your agency's permission...so not only are you representing your department (it'd be different if you weren't wearing their uniform) but you're doing so w/ their endorsement.

 

[Alien Allen]

where is reported they were in police uniform at the time?

I must have missed it.

 

[The Man]

No one can not. If you are basically "hogtied" it is VERY difficult to roll over to your side. It's one of the first things we were taught in EMT school...if PD has the patient hogtied never EVER transport them like that b/c they will die on you.

We still dont know if he was hog tied..and if he was he would be on a floor and can get to his side...or at least partially which is all it takes to be able to breath.
Asphyxiation is actually a long process taking several minutes....this was no "handcuffed then he died"
The person passes out first then dies minutes later.

Back to hog tied...why would he need to be hog tied if he is in cuffs and there are three officers present?
If you can hold ones feet to get em hogtied they are pretty much restrained already IMO...as has said being hog tied alone wont kill you.

Give this a read

http://books.google.com/books?id=BF...EwCA#v=onepage&q=hogtied asphyxiation&f=false

The main point here is three guys against one guy in handcuffs....how hard is it for three guys to restrain one man in handcuffs without killing him.

Back to basics...once the guy is passed out he obviously isn't struggling ...therefore we no longer have a resisting suspect..at this point all forms of hindered breathing should be stopped...not several minutes later.

IMO when its said and done they had this boy on his belly and had alot of weight on him as he resisted...the lesson went to far on the young man and he perished.

None the less they should be charged with manslaughter as their actions caused the death..as said had theater staff done the same thing they would be charged.

What pisses me off that with three vet cops present..not one of them knew the guy had already had enough and couldnt breath.

When do we consider it ok to treat handicapped people like trash and it is ok?

Perhaps had he been black like martin beating the shit out of zimmerman...it would get the attention it needs.

 

[Natasha]

where is reported they were in police uniform at the time?

I must have missed it.

Oops, you're right, I misread. Our deputies either wear full uniform or polos and BDUs, but they always have the department represented.

 

[Natasha]

We still dont know if he was hog tied..and if he was he would be on a floor and can get to his side...or at least partially which is all it takes to be able to breath.

OMFG!!! I know we don't know this...which is why I said at least twice many many posts ago that I was just speculating and it was futile to argue facts that aren't known!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't read the rest of your post because I'm about to start class, but you should be upset at the death in general, not because he had Downs. If it's wrong it's wrong, no matter who died, IJS

 

[Alien Allen]

The main point here is three guys against one guy in handcuffs....how hard is it for three guys to restrain one man in handcuffs without killing him.

It can be damn hard and you should know that. Just because the guy has Downs Syndrome does not make him an invalid.

Back to basics...once the guy is passed out he obviously isn't struggling ...therefore we no longer have a resisting suspect..at this point all forms of hindered breathing should be stopped...not several minutes later.

How do you know they didn't stop?

IMO when its said and done they had this boy on his belly and had alot of weight on him as he resisted...the lesson went to far on the young man and he perished.

Where are you getting these (facts) from?

Unless there has been more reported it seems all we know is the following:

A person who has downs syndrome died when refusing to leave a theater.

Three off duty cops acting working security tried to remove him.

The person was left alone in the theater while the personal aide went to get a car.

The coroner ruled it murder.

 

[Alien Allen]

Now all we need is for Johnny or Dundee to come in and call me a redneck racist apologist for the cops.

I can't believe the misinformation being posted here. Unless there are other reports some of you have seen which indicate otherwise and you just have not bothered to post the source.

Something happened that was bad and there should be people held responsible but come on lets at least find out what actually happened.

 

[The Man]

It can be damn hard and you should know that. Just because the guy has Downs Syndrome does not make him an invalid.

How do you know they didn't stop?



Where are you getting these (facts) from?

Unless there has been more reported it seems all we know is the following:

A person who has downs syndrome died when refusing to leave a theater.

Three off duty cops acting working security tried to remove him.

The person was left alone in the theater while the personal aide went to get a car.

The coroner ruled it murder.

It can be damn hard and you should know that. Just because the guy has Downs Syndrome does not make him an invalid.

I didn't lessen his physical abilities by him having downs syndrome.
The fact still remains he was in handcuffs...and there were three guys to his one.

How do you know they didn't stop?

As he was asphyxiated which takes several minutes to accomplish.

And your position supports such with your quote of murder below

The coroner ruled it murder.

I am curious if any of the three tried cpr {which they should be trained in}

Where are you getting these (facts) from?

Note I stated IMO to what you referenced.

 

[The Man]

OMFG!!! I know we don't know this...which is why I said at least twice many many posts ago that I was just speculating and it was futile to argue facts that aren't known!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't read the rest of your post because I'm about to start class, but you should be upset at the death in general, not because he had Downs. If it's wrong it's wrong, no matter who died, IJS

I was willing to give them the benefit of doubt which the hog tie...but yes its all speculation.
But the fact remains a handcuffed man was asphyxiated while three officers were present.

 

[The Man]

I ask how does a man die from cuffs alone?

 

[The Man]

Now all we need is for Johnny or Dundee to come in and call me a redneck racist apologist for the cops.

I can't believe the misinformation being posted here. Unless there are other reports some of you have seen which indicate otherwise and you just have not bothered to post the source.

Something happened that was bad and there should be people held responsible but come on lets at least find out what actually happened.

Something happened that was bad and there should be people held responsible but come on lets at least find out what actually happened

You stated the coroner said it was murder...so how can you not be fully supporting of arresting them then having a trial?...or are you in support of arresting them then having a trial?

The cops arent obviously saying "we murdered the young man"...but you are saying the coroner says they were murdered...so if the cops didnt murder the lad then who did?

 

[Alien Allen]

You stated the coroner said it was murder...so how can you not be fully supporting of arresting them then having a trial?...or are you in support of arresting them then having a trial?

The cops arent obviously saying "we murdered the young man"...but you are saying the coroner says they were murdered...so if the cops didnt murder the lad then who did?

Where did I say they were innocent?

I believe the police chief said there should be a grand jury and I agree with that.

Let the FACTS come out and the chips fall as they may.

As to the coroner stating murder I could be wrong but he does not determine if there should be a trial. That is up to the DA. I would have to do a little research but I think coroners stating murder is more of a technical statement where it means not a natural death etc.

I am guessing if it comes out as it appears then this is more along the lines of manslaughter and not murder.

 

[Joe the meek]

A picture of the victim.



He looks like a big strong dude. I can see where the LEO's felt they needed all three of them.

 

[Alien Allen]

has there been any witnesses who stated what they observed?

still scratching my head at the choice of movie. An intense and not at times easy to follow R rated movie?

also who on earth would leave him in the theater to go get a car? Unless he was left in the lobby.

There is so much that just does not make sense.

 

[The Man]

Where did I say they were innocent?

I believe the police chief said there should be a grand jury and I agree with that.

Let the FACTS come out and the chips fall as they may.

As to the coroner stating murder I could be wrong but he does not determine if there should be a trial. That is up to the DA. I would have to do a little research but I think coroners stating murder is more of a technical statement where it means not a natural death etc.

I am guessing if it comes out as it appears then this is more along the lines of manslaughter and not murder.

Where did I say they were innocent?

You didnt..but you did say the coroner determined it was murder..{I think you meant to say homicide however}.

I believe the police chief said there should be a grand jury and I agree with that.

All that does is give an excuse to not file charges{No indictment by grand jury}..a grand jury isnt needed to file charges nor is needed for this occurrence.

Let the FACTS come out and the chips fall as they may.

The facts are out..a mentally handicapped young man was asphyxiated while in handcuffs....the coroner already determined it was a homicide {one or multiple humans killing another}

As to the coroner stating murder I could be wrong but he does not determine if there should be a trial. That is up to the DA

You are correct it is not up to the coroner and is up to the DA..who is failing to file charges.

I would have to do a little research but I think coroners stating murder is more of a technical statement where it means not a natural death etc.

Correct...it essentially means someone was killed by the actions of another....A heart attack for instance isnt a homicide but a gunshot death is.

I am guessing if it comes out as it appears then this is more along the lines of manslaughter and not murder.

I stated that earlier...that they should be charged with manslaughter and rightly so.

I would have to find the link again..but the officers state.... the victim began to act distressed then they uncuffed him and called medics.

A distressed man is moving about making noise etc...this guy was asphyxiated until death...which means he was deprived of breathing for several minutes after he already passed out.
If the cuffs were the cause of not breathing..breathing would resume upon the cuffs being released to someone conscious and under distress as they could easily reposition themselves to breath again.

Lets face it they werent not concerned until several minutes after the victim became unresponsive{the time it takes to die for asphyxiation.}

As said it takes several minutes to die from asphyxiation...more people live through it than die from it as they arent actually dead yet while the one administering the asphyxiation thinks they are...they wake up some time later....or perhaps go into coma if the lack of oxygen went on for to long.

You want to find out exactly what happened..charge all three with manslaughter.
Until then the story is..."we cuffed him..when he began acting distressed we uncuffed him"
Which is absolute bullshit as he cant act distressed while passed out...and had he not been unconscious and was actually acting distressed then why was he asphyxiated after the cuffs were released.
The coroner clearly called it a homicide by asphyxiation.


Lets face it they weighted the guy until he died...sure he may have been irate etc who knows.
The point here is this guy clearly was held way beyond the point of "squirming fighting back etc" for several minutes after he already passed out ..How can you resist if you are passed out?

This pisses me off..its the same way they kill with tazers here...they taze em ...then give an order, they keep tazing as the victim cant comply as they are being tazed.

They know it...but its the excuse to keep juicing them.

There is no way that not at least one of these guys knew this guy was passed out...being blue, not breathing and non responsive are good clues.

Theater management is pretty lame in this case as well ...calling in 3 off duties for a mentally handicapped person wanting to see the movie again.
As far as I know one can sit through the movie again..I know it used to be standard..but not sure if that has changed...but lets say they have a one sit policy...let him sit the second time then just deny him entry again in the future?{refuse ticket}...personally I wouldnt have worried about it had it been my theater and let him sit a second time.
What kind of theater denies a second watch to a guy with downs...Jerk theater owners.
Sure dont have three guys come in and asphyxiate him