Keeping Score

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HK

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Spawned by reading Fred's thread about how different things are in schools now.


Not having a child yet, I can't say how prevalent this is, but there does seem to be a lot of people adopting the idea with kids that you shouldn't focus on competition and having winners and losers. That everyone should get rewarded just for taking part.


Is it just me, or is thoroughly unrealistic? You don't get anything once you're an adult just for turning up, or 'trying your best'. If you're not good enough and/or don't try hard enough, you'll get nothing, and everyone would think you were an idiot if you complained about not getting rewarded for not being the best.


So why do people think we should be teaching kids this non-competitive mentality when it's completely at odds with the real world?
 
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Springsteen

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So why do people think we should be teaching kids this non-competitive mentality when it's completely at odds with the real world?

No, and this is why it shouldn't be. But at times it is, and it only sets them up for failure in later life because they'll think finishing second is good enough.

Takes the snooker for example tonight. Did Ali Carter get a trophy for finishing second to Ronnie O'Sullivan? No.

Nobody ever remembers the person/team who didn't win. This is why teaching kids that failure is okay should never be okay.
 

porterjack

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I would say there are way too many overweight kids who only get off their butts to play sport because they only get invited to play in a friendly house league (i.e. no scoring, no league tables) environment

Locally here we have competitive and house league sports both in the community snd in the schools
 

AUFred

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Today we worry to much about a children's self-esteem. What that child who does not excel at in athletic endeavors doesn't realize is little Johnny who is a good baseball player has slept with a baseball glove since he was 3. His Dad started playing pitch with him before he could walk. Little Johnny doesn't own a pair of pants without patched knees from sliding into bases. He asked for a new bat for his 7th birthday because he loves baseball. Should we diminish that child's passion by not keeping score? The answer is no.
 

Kyle B

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When I played AYSO, we kept score but still got trophies at the end. The winners though, got an extra certificate or something for being in first. Same when I bowled. We all got bowling bins congratulating us on our high score, but the team that did the best got a trophy. My team won first place a few times (out of like 20 teams!)

If everyone gets a little something but the winners get something extra to commemorate their win, then I don't see the problem with that.

Honestly, I think most kids are gonna realize their are winners and losers during some point in their childhood.
 

freakofnature

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Today we worry to much about a children's self-esteem. What that child who does not excel at in athletic endeavors doesn't realize is little Johnny who is a good baseball player has slept with a baseball glove since he was 3. His Dad started playing pitch with him before he could walk. Little Johnny doesn't own a pair of pants without patched knees from sliding into bases. He asked for a new bat for his 7th birthday because he loves baseball. Should we diminish that child's passion by not keeping score? The answer is no.
I think Fred's right. Self-esteem has a lot to do it. But I don't think that the current strategy of making everything non-competitive is the right thing to do. A child might not be good athletically but might excel in drama club, for example. Instead of bring everyone down to the same level, they should find a child's strength and build them up in that area. It's OK to be lousy at something. Just find something you're good at and go from there. :)
 

Joe the meek

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Today we worry to much about a children's self-esteem. What that child who does not excel at in athletic endeavors doesn't realize is little Johnny who is a good baseball player has slept with a baseball glove since he was 3. His Dad started playing pitch with him before he could walk. Little Johnny doesn't own a pair of pants without patched knees from sliding into bases. He asked for a new bat for his 7th birthday because he loves baseball. Should we diminish that child's passion by not keeping score? The answer is no.

It's not that I worry about a child's self esteem, I worry about the parents screaming at the "sporting events" in question.

Last year watching our 5 year old son playing soccer, I was amazed at both the mothers and fathers who got "way into it" and the example they were setting for their own children.

God forbid kids learn to have FUN, and God forbid they have fun PLAYING with each other.
 

AnitaBeer

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I tell my kids not to focus on winning or losing, but to do the best they can and if they do lose it's not the end of the world. My boys are both very competitive and I've seen them get bummed about not winning so it's my way to get them over that. It's good to have healthy competition, but to get to that point you must first learn that it's ok to lose too and as long as you are trying your damnest then that's what matters.
Participation awards have been around for ages BTW that's nothing new.
I also think age has a big play in this too, if we are talking about 5 and 6 year olds getting an award just for being there, then GREAT. They deserve it! If we are talking about 16 year olds then no just give them recognition for their hard work and dedication.
 

Jezzebelle

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It always surprises me how much this topic comes up... and I think it's normally people who view it from the "outside", like grandparent, upcoming parents, etc. Since I have kids in the thick of this situation (age 4 & 8), let me shed some light.

Most sports for ages 4-7, are the everybody plays, everybody wins, sometimes the keep score, sometimes they don't. The leagues are basically for teaching little kids the games (baseball, football, soccer, etc.), having fun, getting exercise. Once kids hit about age 7 (first grade) and up, for most sports there becomes two different paths. The competitive route, and the just for fun route. There's travel baseball where kids compete in tournaments, there's tackle football and not flag. The noncompetitive path still does keep score, and has winners/losers... but is the type of league where everyone still gets a trophy at the end of the year. I think this is great for kids who aren't serious sports players to have fun, get exercise, learn the game, etc.

The competitive path is insane. I believe kids are constantly getting better and more amazing even younger all the time. Think of how many 18 year olds go straight to the NBA now, how many rookie NFL players actually start now, how baseball is drafting younger and younger. These kids are so amazing and so good, they practice all the time, parents spend THOUSANDS of dollars every year for private coaches, lessons, equipment... there's no place for kids who just play for fun and aren't that great (hence why the other leagues started springing up). These are the parents that are also insane. You scream, yell, and get into it because this is something your kid is so dedicated to. I think sometimes parents look harder/worse than they actually are because they know their kids want this and they're just pushing them through a rough spot (although I am sure, just like anything else some do cross a line).

We have experience with both tiers of sports. My son plays baseball for fun, and does football competitively. He's been invited to be on the travel baseball team, but we don't have the money or time to commit to it, nor does my son have the passion for it. It's fun, he plays with friends, he has great days where he hits homeruns and bad days where he strikes out. They win/lose, had a mini tournament against some other "fun" teams and even though they were seeded second, lost right away. It is what it is and likes doing it with his friends in the spring.

My son plays football competitively, and LIVES for it. He hurries through his homework at night so he can sit at the table and write his own football plays, he plays madden constantly when he can't find anyone to throw a real ball with him, he RUNS constantly to train, he works out until we have to tell him to stop and rest his muscles. Boy is a beast and loves every minute of it. He's a running back and scored 17 touchdowns last season, he was second in the league in touchdowns to only one kid.... the son of a NFL running back who has a Super Bowl ring.

So basically you need to find the right league for what you and your child want to get out of the sport. It's not "there's no winners and losers anymore! everything is too PC!" or is it "parents are too hard on their kids, they should play for fun!" Just do your research, and talk to other parents, and find the right type of team for your kids.
 

AUFred

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I coached my son in sports from the time he was about 4 until he graduated high school. I always worked on him being the best that he could be. I heard way too many parents who were terrible examples for their children. Trying to balance allowing a child to excel and keep him from getting hurt were the hardest things to do. Keeping the parents appeased was the real difficulty. At times we were just unpaid babysitters.
 

Zorak

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The only thing I'd ask of the people who coach kids in sports is they give everyone an equal chance. Don't leave some kids sitting on the bench or off the team cos they're not as good as others. Try to win, but only as an extension of trying to do your best. Give everyone a fair chance, but also instill in them that it is only sports. And at the end of the day, of no importance whatsoever.
 

Abcinthia

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I think taking some of the competitive edge away encourages kids to keep trying.

I agree but I think it works better for younger kids than older kids.

When I was young (about 8), I got a certificate for trying hard at swimming and I was so proud. I was in the bottom group, could just about manage not to drown every week and that certificate made me feel great. I put in a lot of effort after it and managed to get moved up a group and almost got my 10metre certificate. That kind of thing would not have worked when I was a teenager.
 

Boomerang

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I agree but I think it works better for younger kids than older kids.

When I was young (about 8), I got a certificate for trying hard at swimming and I was so proud. I was in the bottom group, could just about manage not to drown every week and that certificate made me feel great. I put in a lot of effort after it and managed to get moved up a group and almost got my 10metre certificate. That kind of thing would not have worked when I was a teenager.

I agree completely.

I think things are treated differently based on where the sports are played. For example, there are definitely winners and losers in high school competitive sports. As soon as kids have to start trying-out to get on a team, I think that whole "everyone is a winner" stuff goes out the window. However, in gym class...not so much.
 

Kyle B

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I agree completely.

I think things are treated differently based on where the sports are played. For example, there are definitely winners and losers in high school competitive sports. As soon as kids have to start trying-out to get on a team, I think that whole "everyone is a winner" stuff goes out the window. However, in gym class...not so much.

Unless you're one of those kids who takes Gym class super seriously.
 

Jezzebelle

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The only thing I'd ask of the people who coach kids in sports is they give everyone an equal chance. Don't leave some kids sitting on the bench or off the team cos they're not as good as others. Try to win, but only as an extension of trying to do your best. Give everyone a fair chance, but also instill in them that it is only sports. And at the end of the day, of no importance whatsoever.

I strongly disagree that's it's "of no importance whatsoever." My son working his ass of now could mean the difference between him getting a free college education or not later in life. It teaches him to value hardwork and teamwork. It makes him strong and thickskinned to critques. It shows him that working hard actually gets you something, not just showing up and expecting equal play. I have no problem with kids sitting on the bench on a competitive team. You have to earn the right to play there. If that's not what you're looking for in sports, then you should go play on a "just for fun team."
 

Panacea

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Today we worry to much about a children's self-esteem.

I'd argue we simply worry about it wrong. We need to focus on self-esteem, but realize being handed a win does not self-esteem make. That comes from finding something you love, working at it, and succeeding or failing and learning from it.

THAT is what builds someones value of themselves, it gives them the ability to stand on their own and still be ok when no one around them is willing to give them a 5th place trophy.
 

Zorak

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I strongly disagree that's it's "of no importance whatsoever." My son working his ass of now could mean the difference between him getting a free college education or not later in life. It teaches him to value hardwork and teamwork. It makes him strong and thickskinned to critques. It shows him that working hard actually gets you something, not just showing up and expecting equal play. I have no problem with kids sitting on the bench on a competitive team. You have to earn the right to play there. If that's not what you're looking for in sports, then you should go play on a "just for fun team."

Thats fair enough. Of course things are different over here. Anyone can go to any college if they have the grades. Sport is not a part of academia.
So I cannot comment on your situation; only ours.
 

Francis

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Take a child to a competition where you and the child knows no one..

While one might say it leads to telling out children that showing up is more important than winning I think that is incorrect..

You first have to assess the situation and consider was the competition fair ?

I find that in 75% of the cases it is not.. Hence what you are teaching your children is that it is extremely important to try yet not get discouraged.. And that playing fair by far is much more important than winning at all cost..
 
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