Can you know God without understanding or recognizing his perfect works?

[FreightTrain]

All religions offer tolerance, introspection.

If Buddism doesn't demonize anything then why do you end up in a bad place if you misbehave, and a good place if you don't? Why are so many earthly pleasures forbidden? Why must we abstain? Sounds like the same carrot and stick notions of hellfire and heaven to me.

You're talking about a very primitive Buddhism. I'm talking about the one being practiced today by the Dalai Lama which has since altered some of those views, but not all.

 

[Pet Sounds]

You're talking about a very primitive Buddhism. I'm talking about the one being practiced today by the Dalai Lama which has since altered some of those views, but not all.

The Dalai Lama basically said homosexuality is a sin and against nature.

 

[BornReady]

loling at the candide quote. Voltaire was ridiculing Dr. Pangloss' leibnizian rhetoric, not embracing it.

Oh, if I could believe or even understand that! :surrender

Leibnizian optimism is the idea that all is well because all is as it has to be, that things could not be otherwise. The chief supporter of this idea was Leibniz, an 18th century German philosopher. Voltaire, a French philosopher from the same time period, wrote Candide as an attack on Leibnizian optimism. Maldoror was commenting on the irony of using a quote from Candide in support of the idea the story ridicules.

My proof is seeing the evolving perfection around us.

By perfection you seem to mean that everything is as it must be. In which case you can hardly use perfection as proof of God. If everything is as it must be then it will be that way with or without God. In other words, if there was no God then in what way would the world differ?

 

[FreightTrain]

The Dalai Lama basically said homosexuality is a sin and against nature.

Instead of misinformation, maybe it would be helpful to cite your sources. Just my thoughts.

 

[FreightTrain]

Leibnizian optimism is the idea that all is well because all is as it has to be, that things could not be otherwise. The chief supporter of this idea was Leibniz, an 18th century German philosopher. Voltaire, a French philosopher from the same time period, wrote Candide as an attack on Leibnizian optimism. Maldoror was commenting on the irony of using a quote from Candide in support of the idea the story ridicules.



By perfection you seem to mean that everything is as it must be. In which case you can hardly use perfection as proof of God. If everything is as it must be then it will be that way with or without God. In other words, if there was no God then in what way would the world differ?

Born = quite the question poser. :thumbup

 

[Dana]

perfection is overrated

 

[Greatest I am]

What evolving perfection? You call entropy perfection? Because that is the direction the universe is taking. The universe is constantly becoming more and more disordered, unlivable, and eventually will break down/cease to exist or function. The universe is right about at its prime right now, but will degrade, end, and so will everything in it. You have this Aristotlian view of the world that all the heavens, celestial bodies, and universe are perfect. They aren't. They are slowly decaying and dying. Copernicus and Galileo (both Catholics) put and end to that notion long ago. Stars and planets will cease to be made, eventually not even atoms will be able to exist. The universe will weaken and die just like everything else. It isn't evolving towards perfection, it is evolving towards extinction.

Is entropy not following it's nature. Is that not the perfect thing for it to do?
Yes it is. It does not care for your opinion. It does what it is supposed to do.

As to life dying. Yes, it to follows it's nature. I call that evolving perfection.

I find it strange that you do not get it.
FYPOV, God and all things in the beginning were perfect.
God then evolved that initial perfection to what is now and scripture says that perfection only creates perfection. It cannot start to produce imperfection.

Where is your faith in God's power to maintain the perfection of his systems?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Leibnizian optimism is the idea that all is well because all is as it has to be, that things could not be otherwise. The chief supporter of this idea was Leibniz, an 18th century German philosopher. Voltaire, a French philosopher from the same time period, wrote Candide as an attack on Leibnizian optimism. Maldoror was commenting on the irony of using a quote from Candide in support of the idea the story ridicules.



By perfection you seem to mean that everything is as it must be. In which case you can hardly use perfection as proof of God. If everything is as it must be then it will be that way with or without God. In other words, if there was no God then in what way would the world differ?

I speak of the perfection of the natural systems we live in. I do not believe in a creator God.

Believers though do not give God the credit for creating perfection at all or when they do, they say that we screwed it all up. A God would of course not create a system that could be screwed up.

If we are in the best of all possible worlds, at all points in time, and I think we are, then I feel justified in saying that that is as perfect as it can be and since it evolves, I call it evolving perfection.

If you do not like the U S version of perfection, then good going to a better good can be used but I think that tortures language more than evolving perfection.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Instead of misinformation, maybe it would be helpful to cite your sources. Just my thoughts.

P S is correct. The Dalai Lama called it inappropriate sex.
It is one of the few things I hold against him.

Regards
DL

 

[Zorak]

Instead of misinformation, maybe it would be helpful to cite your sources. Just my thoughts.

Not misinformation, common knowledge.

 

[BornReady]

The Chinese invasion of Tibet was wrong. But I'm not sure the Tibetans are any worse off than when the Dalai Lama was in power. Historian Michael Parenti writes about the Lama-regime:

Not all Tibetan exiles are enamored of the old Shangri-La theocracy. Kim Lewis, who studied healing methods with a Buddhist monk in Berkeley, California, had occasion to talk at length with more than a dozen Tibetan women who lived in the monk’s building. When she asked how they felt about returning to their homeland, the sentiment was unanimously negative. At first, Lewis assumed that their reluctance had to do with the Chinese occupation, but they quickly informed her otherwise. They said they were extremely grateful “not to have to marry 4 or 5 men, be pregnant almost all the time,” or deal with sexually transmitted diseases contacted from a straying husband. The younger women “were delighted to be getting an education, wanted absolutely nothing to do with any religion, and wondered why Americans were so naïve [about Tibet].

 

[Pet Sounds]

Parenti is about as non-biased and relevant as Chomsky. In other words, not to be taken seriously. Not suprised to see leftists white wash communist regimes and demonize their victims.

Anecdotes of anecdotes of a yoga instructor. Such scholarship.

 

[BornReady]

I'm not claiming the Chinese occupation is any better than the old Lama regime. I'm just not convinced it's any worse.

 

[Pet Sounds]

I'm not claiming the Chinese occupation is any better than the old Lama regime. I'm just not convinced it's any worse.

Well considering the Communist Chinese are literally the most muderous regime in human history...I think it is worse. There is nobody worse, or even on that level besides maybe their Soviet buddies.

I don't see your statement as any worse, or better than, somebody saying the Jews and Germans had it better under the Nazis than they did before. How could you even entertain such a ridiculous idea?

 

[BornReady]

I think the Lama-regime was oppressive and the Chinese occupation is oppressive. I think the Nazi regime was oppressive and the Jews have been oppressed by others as well. I don't understand why any of those beliefs are ridiculous. :dunno

Edit: I was focused on the Nazi example and missed you're first paragraph. Now I understand. You're saying the Chinese occupation is much worse than the Lama regime. I really couldn't say. But if you say so then I'm inclined to believe you.