Animal Cruelty video is free speech???

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Supreme Court says fetish videos depicting animal cruelty deserve free speech protections
12:00 AM CDT on Wednesday, April 21, 2010
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that even videos that depict wanton animal cruelty deserve free-speech protections under the First Amendment.

In an 8-1 decision that united the court's liberal and conservative wings, the justices struck down a law that was enacted in response to so-called crush videos, supposedly designed to satisfy bizarre sexual cravings. The court said the law, however well-intentioned, went too far.

"Maybe there are some categories of speech that have been historically unprotected," Chief Justice John Roberts wrote for the majority, "but if so, there is no evidence that depictions of animal cruelty is among them."

The ruling means that animal cruelty won't be added to obscenity, fraud and the handful of other categories of constitutionally unprotected speech.

"The majority opinion shows that the current court, although frequently described as politically conservative, continues to take free-speech protections seriously," said lawyer Andy Tauber, who filed an amicus brief in the case.

Roberts, quoting in part from a congressional report, explained that crush videos often show women "slowly crushing animals to death 'with their bare feet or while wearing high-heeled shoes,' sometimes while 'talking to the animals in a kind of dominatrix patter' over 'the cries and squeals of the animals.' "

Solicitor General Elena Kagan had asked the justices to balance the value of the speech against its societal cost. But Roberts rejected that notion as "startling and dangerous."

"The First Amendment's guarantee of free speech does not extend only to categories of speech that survive an ad hoc balancing of relative social costs and benefits," he wrote.

Justice Samuel Alito was the sole dissenter.

Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the U.S., said Congress should pass a narrower law quickly "to make sure the First Amendment is not used as a shield for those committing barbaric acts of cruelty and then peddling their videos on the Internet."

McClatchy Newspapers
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...-scotus_21nat.ART.State.Edition1.4cdabef.html



I didn't read the arguments. My first kneejerk reaction was that animal cruelty was already illegal, so how could a video of it possibly be legal? Then I thought about how prostitution is illegal in most of the US, but it's perfectly okay to pay a person to have sex so long as you publish the video & sell it for profit. :wtf:


An argument on my local talk radio brought up hunting videos. Many people think hunting is cruel, and videos such as the ones on cable that teach hunting, field dressing, and wildlife conservation might get caught up in the net if the Supreme Court had decided differently.


Frankly I'm stumped. Isn't cruelty cruelty? Wouldn't making a video of animal cruelty to sell for profit be aiding the commission of a crime? (yeh, there's a word for it but it escapes me at the mo.)



Any time we consider limiting a freedom we have to consider possible unintended consequences. What are the consequences of this decision? What if they had decided differently?
 
Animal cruelty is illegal, but making a movie showing it is not. At first glance I don't have a problem with that. What if you were undercover making a movie to expose a ring of dog fighters and your movie is evidence- how would you make a distinction? This movie is ok, because it was used to expose, but this one is not because it was used to document the fight for entertainment? It's seems like a slippery slope.
 
Animal cruelty is illegal, but making a movie showing it is not. At first glance I don't have a problem with that. What if you were undercover making a movie to expose a ring of dog fighters and your movie is evidence- how would you make a distinction? This movie is ok, because it was used to expose, but this one is not because it was used to document the fight for entertainment? It's seems like a slippery slope.
Sure, but shouldn't the movie be evidence of a crime? I'm thinking that even if the speech itself is a right, there's still a crime being committed. If that logic doesn't fly, then something like child porn or violent gang rape should also fall under the free speech umbrella ... so long as it's for sale to the public.
 
I don't think it should be illegal, it's fucked up for sure, but it shouldn't be illegal. Because then videos 'faking it' would also be illegal, but they aren't technically doing anything illegal in the video (since it is fake). Get it?

It's legal to make porn depicting extreme violence, sex, rape, etc, but there is no way to tell what is real and what isn't. So we have to make it all illegal then?

IMO it's the same thing, and to outlaw these 'animal abuse films' you would have to outlaw a shit load of other the video stuff to be fair. And I just don't see where they will draw the line or how they can possibly regulate that much stuff on something as incredibly expansive as the internet.
 
Sure, but shouldn't the movie be evidence of a crime? I'm thinking that even if the speech itself is a right, there's still a crime being committed. If that logic doesn't fly, then something like child porn or violent gang rape should also fall under the free speech umbrella ... so long as it's for sale to the public.

Video's depicting child porn are illegal, but gang rape isn't, because there is no proof the women isn't a consenting member 'pretending' to be raped/non consensual. Although it could be used as evidence if she came forward saying she was raped...
 
Video's depicting child porn are illegal, but gang rape isn't, because there is no proof the women isn't a consenting member 'pretending' to be raped/non consensual. Although it could be used as evidence if she came forward saying she was raped...
Fine, so bring it back to the point & see if it fits. Are you saying that entertainment videos of animal cruelty shows no proof the animal isn't consenting?
 
Sure, but shouldn't the movie be evidence of a crime?
Yes if it's documented and animal cruelty is a crime (where I think it is most places?).

I'm thinking that even if the speech itself is a right, there's still a crime being committed. If that logic doesn't fly, then something like child porn or violent gang rape should also fall under the free speech umbrella ... so long as it's for sale to the public.
Child porn and movies of child porn are illegal. I'm ok with that. They want to do the same thing with animals- make the filming of animal cruelty for entertainment illegal. I guess you'd have to take the subject matter on a case by case basis. With animals I'm satisfied that having animal cruelty illegal is good enough. I don't see a need to take the next step and make a movie of it illegal also because it's heading in a direction I don't want to see the authorities go when it comes to free speech.

PETA is ostensibly exposing a crime & shows the video hoping to get someone punished. These guys abuse animals themselves & show the video hoping to get a buck ... and a boner.

You know if we were all neutered, there be a lot less problems in the world. ;)
 
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Yes if it's documented and animal cruelty is a crime (where I think it is most places?).
I believe it's also law everywhere in the US that a criminal can't profit from his crime, such as writing an autobiography, so I don't see how these videos fall into a different category.

Minor Axis said:
Child porn and movies of child porn are illegal. I'm ok with that. They want to do the same thing with animals- make the filming of animal cruelty for entertainment illegal. I guess you'd have to take the subject matter on a case by case basis. With animals I'm satisfied that having animal cruelty illegal is good enough. I don't see a need to take the next step and make a movie of it illegal also because it's heading in a direction I don't want to see the authorities go when it comes to free speech.
Possession of child porn is illegal, which I agree with and which is arguably overkill regarding animals (wasn't there a comedy movie that showed a sheep in a hotel room wearing lingerie?).

Minor Axis said:
You know if we were all neutered, there be a lot less problems in the world. ;)
Please spay or neuter your teens. :D
 
Fine, so bring it back to the point & see if it fits. Are you saying that entertainment videos of animal cruelty shows no proof the animal isn't consenting?

It could be faked somehow, AKA the animal was never harmed in the first place. There is no way to know for sure, with all the fancy editors and editing software out there nowadays.

Investigate the videos being made, but illegalizing the ability to video tape it certainly won't stop it from happening.
 
PETA is ostensibly exposing a crime & shows the video hoping to get someone punished. These guys abuse animals themselves & show the video hoping to get a buck ... and a boner.

PETA is using outdated videos about animal abuse that is already illegal with abusers that have already been prosecuted to make it appear that animal abuse is a major problem--when the truth is it's a rare problem.

Anyways, the point is how do you make the distinction, if people get off on animal abuse, they will probably get off just as much on PETA videos then the videos being created by other people.

"Well this video was made for people to get off on, and this one wasn't, so we will make the first one illegal, but not the second. Even though both are now on sex websites and used for jacking off."

It's sort of like saying it's okay for people to take pictures of naked children for photographic art, but not for child porn. People will still use both for the same thing and it will always be nearly impossible to tell what's real, what isn't, what was made originally for sex, and what wasn't.
 
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It could be faked somehow, AKA the animal was never harmed in the first place. There is no way to know for sure, with all the fancy editors and editing software out there nowadays.

Investigate the videos being made, but illegalizing the ability to video tape it certainly won't stop it from happening.
That makes sense in verifying whether it is true animal cruelty or not, but once it's verified that a crime was committed and the criminal is capitalizing it to turn a profit, should it still fall under free speech protection?
 
That makes sense in verifying whether it is true animal cruelty or not, but once it's verified that a crime was committed and the criminal is capitalizing it to turn a profit, should it still fall under free speech protection?

After it's been posted on the internet it's probably impossible to delete completely, but if a company is proven to be capitalizing on videos that are commiting crimes they were proven guilty of, they should have their website shutdown/deleted or something.

Maybe we could setup a permit thing for all types of pornograhy websites, that can be revoked if illegal activies are proven to be commmited.

I don't agree with allowing them to capitalize on their crimes; I'm just not sure how we can exactly stop it without incidently revoking others right to speech who aren't commiting any crimes.
 
After it's been posted on the internet it's probably impossible to delete completely, but if a company is proven to be capitalizing on videos that are commiting crimes they were proven guilty of, they should have their website shutdown/deleted or something.
But no criminal conviction at all?? Shutting down a website is just a minor and very temporary inconvenience. I would expect a conviction with punishment as severe as the actual abuse. There's knowledge of a crime, capitalizing on that crime, and incentivising the commission of more similar crimes.
 
But no criminal conviction at all?? Shutting down a website is just a minor and very temporary inconvenience. I would expect a conviction with punishment as severe as the actual abuse. There's knowledge of a crime, capitalizing on that crime, and incentivising the commission of more similar crimes.

Okay your not getting what I am saying. If they are convicted, it wouldn't matter what other type content they have created. They would be treated the same way as every other animal abuser and recieve the same punishment and convictions.

In addition to that, we could shutdown their website so they don't continue to receive monetary gain from their illegal activities.

(AKA it would be in addition to, not replace of)
 
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