Union Talk

[Minor Axis]

All views welcome!

The Myth of the lazy overpaid union employee:
First of all, realize that the idea of $30/hour toilet cleaner is an extreme end of the anti-union argument. Yes, the janitorial staff could be considered overpaid, but in reality no one walks into the plant and just picks-up an easy job.

Those who "clean toilets" are often older, or injured workers who simply cannot handle the physical labor of climbing in and under the dashboard of a moving vehicle 60-65 times an hour (or running a stamping press, machining gears, pouring molten metal in a foundry). And, yes you do get injured on these jobs whether immediately, or over time. This is no different than putting a cop who has been shot in the leg on desk-duty. So yes, to a certain extent "we take care of our own".

At the other end of the scale you have the lazy worker who just doesn't give a damn, and deserves no "sympathy". But where do you assign the blame that allows such a worker to keep his/her job? I've worked with MANY of these types of people and VERY RARELY have I seen management follow through on the established discipline procedures. So who's the lazy one in the example?

Management likes to grumble about how hard the union makes it to fire people, and then does nothing. Well, it isn't a case of "hard", it's a case of doing the job you agreed to (and get paid for) as a supervisor.

You might think of the union (at the shop-floor level) as defense attorneys. To return to the example if the police; if the cops/prosecution do their jobs correctly, even the best lawyer won't set you free. If management does their job right, you can fire a bad worker.

The UAW at the international (HQ) level, is much closer to corporate management than they'll ever admit. Joint union-corporate "training" funds have turned the UAW rotten to the core. CEOs and union leaders now play golf together, and have a good laugh about the workers who pay the dues. But this is a separate argument.

...Unless you've ever worked in an assembly plant -- I did, in both the "jungle" and the paint line at Belvedere and couldn't stand working there more than 18 months -- you really don't know what these people go through each day and why they get the wages they do. Remember, the company agreed to pay them the wages, so Management must understand and agree that the wages they are paying out are justified! Because Management doesn't do anything it doesn't want to!

If it were not for unions, everyone in America would be working for less than minimum wage -- because minimum wage laws would not exist. Everyone would also be working 7 days a week -- "24/7" the new mantra for business -- because no "seventh day of rest provisions" would exist in labor law! You also would not have any holidays, vacations, health insurance or retirement benefits -- all union pushed ideas. So please, lay off the unions and focus on saving American jobs before it is too late!

With regard to wage-scales, I'd have to rank labor costs at the bottom of things to be concerned about. The average production worker makes under $50,000 without overtime, while DCX VPs cash-in to the tune of tens-of-millions, whether they do a good job or not. And for the last 30-years, auto execs have done run the domestic industry pretty poorly.

I don't want to hear industry execs making excuses about labor costs, unions, overcapacity, etc.! Start designing cars that people want to buy, build a good reputation, and image, and the public will beat-down the door and keep those factories running at full-capacity. Toyota pays its workers nearly the same wage as GM/Ford/DCX.

Don't turn out a boring product like the current Concorde, market it poorly, watch it fail, do nothing to "tweak" sales or keep it fresh and then put it into competition with a car like the Toyota Camry. When the car gets slaughtered in the market, don't try and blame the workers who build it. WE didn't keep it the same since 1998! WE didn't make it look like a beached whale! WE didn't drag our feet for years on a warranty program! And most of all, WE THE WORKERS didn't turn a successful company upside down for personal gain, as did Robert Eaton, Dennis Pawley, Jim Donlon, and yes even the sainted Robert Lutz. This is Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing without the high-tech dazzle.

When our domestic industry buys a clue, and begins trying to sell more cars, rather than figuring out ways to shave .50 cents off the price of an ever-shrinking number of sales; I'll entertain arguments about labor costs.

We can either argue amongst ourselves about the relative "crumbs" of a few bucks an hour, OR WE CAN WAKE UP AND GET WISE THAT A SELECT FEW WOULD TURN THE U.S. INTO A THIRD-WORLD NATION FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL GAIN. In the big picture, this is what we're fighting against.

 

[Minor Axis]

Six Myths about Unions:
If you've ever tried to organize a union before or haven't but know anyone else who has, you have heard the following myths all before. If this is your first attempt to organize a union, get ready to be hit with these whoppers. Feel free to copy this information and redistribute at will.

Myth #1 - Unions Interfere With Profit Making.

The only "profit making" that unions interfere with is the "profit" the boss makes at the expense of the workers who do the actual work that earns the profit. If "interference" means that workers have a say in where profits are going --instead of submitting themselves to the unilateral decisions of management--then you could say unions interfere. Unions redistribute the wealth or profits of the company so that more goes into the pockets of workers and less into the pockets of bosses. As a result, management often benefits from workers input in the efficient operation of the workplace. In addition, satisfied employees are more productive, less likely to quit, and have higher morale.

Myth #2 - Unionized Companies are Inefficient and Have Lower Productivity.

This is a scare tactic that management uses against workers who are organizing a union. Companies do not go out of business because they pay their workers a decent wage and provide benefits; companies go out of business because of poor market conditions or poor management. More non-union companies close each year than unionized ones.

Myth #3 - Unions are Corrupt.

The employing class would like us to believe that all unions are corrupt. The truth is that (most) unions are democratic organizations (relative to the companies that employ the workers' these unions represent) formed to improve the lives of working people. Members elect officials who hire staff to run the day-to-day operation of the union.

It is true that most AFL-CIO unions are corrupt in the sense that they give in to capitalism and that they spend hundreds-of-thousands of their members' dues money on corrupt machine politicians. However most unions, even the AFL-CIO unions are not controlled by the mafia. Furthermore, the IWW is free of all of these problems. The IWW is the most democratic union in the world.

Myth #4 - Unions Protect Lazy Workers.

Unions protect their members from unfair disciplinary actions and firings. Fairness is one of the most important aspects of a union contract, or a shop where union conditions predominate. Under a union contract or in a shop with majority union representation, supervisors or managers no longer have the final say. They are no longer judge and jury. Workers are people from all walks of life who deserve a democratic workplace.

Myth #5 - Unions Represent the Interests of Big Labor Bosses, Not Workers

Unions are democratic institutions made up of workers who elect officers. By voting to form a union at a particular workplace, the workers become members of a local. A local is part of a national union in a representative governing structure that is like our city-state-federal system. Corporations consolidate their power by organizing--through trade associations, the Chamber of Commerce, and mergers--to increase their profit margins. Unless workers consolidate their power into local, industry-wide, and international organizations, they have little, if any, freedom in or out of the workplace.

Myth #6 - Unions Force Workers into Strikes & Unions are Violent

The fact is that less than 2% of contract disputes involve strikes. The vast majority of unions require a vote (often by a supermajority of 2/3 or more) to authorize a strike. Unions and workers view strikes as a last resort. Generally, they only strike when the boss is extremely unreasonable--after all, workers give up their paychecks when they go on strike! And the strike is one of the original tools of non-violent resistance. Strike violence is rare--and rarely unprovoked. It is also important to realize that workers in the United States lack an effective right to strike, because in the U.S., employers can "permanently replace" striking workers. The IWW is a democratic union. Only workers can vote to strike.

We greatly acknowledge the efforts of the AFL-CIO's Organizing Institute who inspired this list.

 

[Peter Parka]

The accepted wage for living in London to be considered above the poverty line is around 7.50 (15$) per hour. I dont care what shitty job you do, you deserve at least that, we're not some third world country and poverty over here at least should be unacceptable. The unions fight for those rights, all praise to them for it! Of course businesses dont like that, their job is to get as much productivety for as little money a possible and that's why we need the unions to give people what the're entitled to.

 

[Minor Axis]

Airline Union FAQ- by a union member

Every item in this post this post was earned with union sweat because of a real life job related situations. It was not first imagined by "socialist workers as a good communist doctrine" as has been asserted in this forum.

1. Why have a union?
Answer: Unions have the right to negotiate contracts.

If companies acted responsibly and morally, there would be no need for unions. However in the past and present day, some companies are neither responsible or moral when it comes to employees. To such companies, you are just a little rat running on their tread mill. The prevalent attitude is here are lots of other rats out there who will replace you for less pay.

2. Why have a contract?
Contracts establish work rules, pay rates, and benefits both agreed to by the employer and the employees. Contracts establish the basic ground rules of employment, giving employees some degree of control over the terms of their employment. As a contract employee you can not be arbitrarily fired. The key word is "arbitrary". Incompetent or bad workers are fired on a regular basis in union companies. In At-Will States, non-contrct employees work at the will of the employer and can be fired at any time, without cause or explanation.
Contracts good for workers? YES

3. Why have work rules?
In airline companies, the work environment is such that depending on the decisions the company makes, employee lifestyles can severely effected in a negative manner.

How? Airline crews are not salaried, being paid by the hour. Airline crews are not paid until the aircraft has moved off the gate and are not paid when sitting around the airport. If you are an hourly employee, would you feel like sitting around your work place all day and not paid until you've filled out a form, or built a widget? Is it your fault the company is not efficient with your time?

The contract forces the company to follow the established work rules. Ever get hired as a full time employee but have your hours cut until in actuality you are a part time worker? I know lots of people who face that and they no longer qualify for medical benefits. Bad for workers? YES

The contract establishes a minimum pay per month. And work rules ensure that if you fly a 3 day trip, you will be paid a minimum number of hours for those 3 days if for some reason all you do is sit around, something like 4.5 hours of pay per day. Is expecting 4.5 hours of pay unreasonable when you end up devoting 3 days of 12 hour day at work?
Good for workers? YES

4. Is it fair to demand pay for when you are not worked?

Under the following circumstances yes it is, because the alternative without work rules might be to go to the airport every day and not be paid at all! Or go fly a trip and be paid 1 hour although you've devoted 7 hours total, 6 hours sitting around.

If your work rules dictate pay is a minimum of 5 hours per day, it gives the company the incentive to be efficient and actually work you a minimum of 5 hours per day. For a full time job is that excessive? Do you think airline employees just pulled this concept out of thin air? It exists because of past abuses.

5. Can contracts prevent companies from laying off employees?
Most times companies can lay off employees when they need to depending on the economy. However there are circumstances when employees give up something, and in return have negotiated a no layoff clause that lasts for the duration of the current contract. In the past parent airline companies have been known to "play" sub companies (and their employees) they own against one another wreaking havok on employees lives. A "no layoff" clause ensures that work will not be taken away from one company and given to another at the whim of the parent company.

More to follow. Any questions? Shoot!

 

[Carthage]

I am fine with unions. They are like corporations for workers.

AS LONG AS THEY DON'T GO TO THE GOVERNMENT

I completely respect unions (AS LONG AS THEY DON'T GO TO THE GOVERNMENT)

But I also respect and support companies moving away because their unions are charging to much.
For me, the dollar almost always trumps the flag.

 

[Carthage]

Thank you, Mulder.

 

[Minor Axis]

Thanks Mulder for your input!

For readers, Mulder's sources have an agenda. I have an agenda- U.S. workers. So if your interested in the topic you'll just have to judge for yourself. However, what I placed in post number 4 based on my experience is completely true, no exaggeration, no spin, just simple facts. I'll leave it up to you to decide if unions are good or bad for employees in the airline industry.

However based on this link: Labor Unions, by Morgan O. Reynolds: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics: Library of Economics and Liberty, I have a few comments:

Quote: Union employees make more, up to 25%.
In contrast, in many cases skilled non-union workers make peanuts. As a worker you decide what would be better. When company management decides to give themselves 100-1000% raises, no problem, right?

Quote: unions have blocked the economic advance of blacks, women, and other minorities.
This is such a generalized statement it has no merit. Blacks, women and other minorities have been discriminated against across the board all job sectors in this country for years. Don't single out unions. The airlines today have pilots that are well represented by women, blacks, and other minorities. There are no hiring barriers in the airline industry.

Quote: And since they are monopolies, unions can indulge the prejudices of their leaders or members without the economic penalties that people in the competitive sector must face.

This is a BS statement, completely BS and has no merit regarding airline unions.

Quote: A major reason is that employees do not like unions. According to a Louis Harris poll commissioned by the AFL-CIO in 1984, only one in three U.S. employees would vote for union representation in a secret ballot election

Were these people polled familiar with unions, were they in unions? Unions such as Teamsters who have national leadership who conduct negotiations on behalf local unions, are not as popular as the local union as promoted by ALPA- The Airline Pilot Association. Why because national unions like Teamsters have a national agenda which may or may not be good for the individual company that is being represented. In ALPA, the national leadership does offer guidance, opinion, and their assistance, but company negotiations are handled completely on the local level by our pilots, and our union leadership is employees for our company.

And unions, as countries are only as good as their leadership. Has there been lousy union leadership? As sure as there has been lousy National government leadership.

Again, the bottom line is that if companies acted in a moral and responsible manner, you'd never see the organization of unions. There is power in a corporation and most of it is controlled by the owner/management. Unions give employees some power, not unfair or overwhelming power, just some. Unions do prevent companies from having 100% free reign over their employees, but from my experience that is a good thing from the worker's perspective. See my post number 4 in this thread.

Thanks!

 

[Minor Axis]

Clarification on the cost of Airline Pilots Salaries on Your Ticket
Recently a comment was made by a forum member that he resented that he had to pay $400 for an airline ticket and that if pilots made less he would not have to pay so much for his ticket, placing a bulls eye on unions. It's a baseless complaint so I'd like to clarify this.

The expense to fly an airplane (the airplane I fly) that holds 148 seats is approximately $.13 per seat/mile. If you take 148 seats, times $.13 per mile = $19.24. So it cost $19.24 per mile to fly that airplane, that flies approximately 400 miles per hour. $19.24 x 400= $7696 per hour. Now take the cost of two pilots per hour $225 and divide it by 148 seats and you'll calculate that for a 1 hour flight, the cost of the pilots would be $1.52 per ticket. For a 3 hours flight the cost of pilots is approx $4.50 per ticket. In addition back to the hourly cost to fly that airplane from point A to B of the $7696 it cost the pilot expenses are approximately 3%. What dwarfs the 3% labor expense are the cost of the leasefor the aircraft and currently the cost of gas which is huge. I'm not sure, but I don't believe seat/miles includes other business costs that the airline incurs to operate the business, such as landing fees, service fees, other salaries, infrastructure, advertising, etc.

Then you can ask yourself why the owners of a particular airline owns the service companies that service the aircraft, why they convert paid for aircraft turning them into expensive leases, pays themselves huge salaries and figures out a multitude of ways to suck out money from the company they own. Then you have a government policy that allows anyone to start an airline with no business plan to speak of offering tickets below the price of what it costs to operate the aircraft to get their feet in the door and in the process dragging the established airline industry down with them.

It is no wonder at all that airlines have trouble making money when those in charge are getting their money, but allowing the company itself to limp along. This situation represents the morals of business leaders who feel like it they are entitled to enrich themselves at the expense of their company and their employees.

 

[Minor Axis]

Happy Labor Day! (posted a view days late).

Study Shows Workers Worse Off on Pay and Employment. But don't worry, our prominent conservative forum cheerleader assures you it's just the market at work. So if you're unemployed, can only find part time work, got no benefits, or seen your wages decline, you are getting what you deserve because the market is always right. Just don't think about the fact that the market is controlled by people with vested interests and those interests are maximum profits, not taking care of your lazy ass. :ninja

The Rutgers labor scorecard offered other sobering findings:

* About 530,000 were subject to mass layoffs in the last year, growth of nearly 5 percent, but a lower rate than five and 10 years ago.
* The median weekly earnings for American workers have not grown in real terms over the last eight years.
* At $6.55, the federal minimum wage is worth 40 cents less per hour, in inflation-adjusted dollars, than it was a decade ago.
* While employer-assisted childcare and employee wellness programs have grown quickly over the last decade, they still cover less than one quarter of American workers.
* Roughly 4 percent of the workforce wants to work full-time, but is working part-time because they can’t find full-time work.

 

[skyblue]

...Unless you've ever worked in an assembly plant -- I did, in both the "jungle" and the paint line at Belvedere and couldn't stand working there more than 18 months -- you really don't know what these people go through each day and why they get the wages they do. Remember, the company agreed to pay them the wages, so Management must understand and agree that the wages they are paying out are justified! Because Management doesn't do anything it doesn't want to!
.

i did for close to 18 years.........and yes,we were worth every penny

 

[Minor Axis]

i did for close to 18 years.........and yes,we were worth every penny

Except certain folks in this forum think your a communist bastard/bitch if you demand a decent wage. What nerve!

 

[Flute]

Myth #4 - Unions Protect Lazy Workers.

Unions protect their members from unfair disciplinary actions and firings. Fairness is one of the most important aspects of a union contract, or a shop where union conditions predominate. Under a union contract or in a shop with majority union representation, supervisors or managers no longer have the final say. They are no longer judge and jury. Workers are people from all walks of life who deserve a democratic workplace.

Not sure about companies, but the local teacher unions protect the idiots that should not be even teaching the ABCs to kindergardeners. It is sickening really. I remember when I was in 2nd grade, the teacher got mad at me because I said Alaska was the biggest state, not Texas like she thought.....

Anyways, unions were good at first but I think a lot have gotten out of control.

 

[Minor Axis]

Not sure about companies, but the local teacher unions protect the idiots that should not be even teaching the ABCs to kindergardeners. It is sickening really. I remember when I was in 2nd grade, the teacher got mad at me because I said Alaska was the biggest state, not Texas like she thought.....

Anyways, unions were good at first but I think a lot have gotten out of control.

I don't think nor support the idea that bad employees should have blanket protection. I assure you in my company, a travel industry company, bad employees are disciplined and some are fired after due process. The key is "due process" which is like going to court, but it is not a drawn out affair, it's pretty quick.

If you don't have a contract, you can be fired for no reason what so ever which means if a customer complained about you, a supervisor could can you without any substantiation at all. That would make most of the employees I know, very nervous because it makes you completely dependent on the good will of supervisors. As you probably know there are both good and bad supervisors...

 

[Strauss]

And what makes you think bad supervisors would last any longer than bad employees?

 

[Minor Axis]

And what makes you think bad supervisors would last any longer than bad employees?

I never said or implied that. Your point?

 

[Strauss]

As you probably know there are both good and bad supervisors...

And what makes you think bad supervisors would last any longer than bad employees?

I never said or implied that. Your point?

So the point is there are good and bad employees just as there are good and bad supervisors and neither type of the bad variety would last long.

BTW, you don't need a union contract for "due process" (as you called it) for employees. Most middle to large companies provide certain grievance procedures without a union.

 

[Minor Axis]

BTW, you don't need a union contract for "due process" (as you called it) for employees. Most middle to large companies provide certain grievance procedures without a union.

That depends on the company. "Due process" with a union behind you is more like a civil proceeding where you have real representation. "Due process" without a union is more like having a U.S. military lawyer defend you at Guantanamo in a U.S. military tribunal. (A smiley icon does not minimize the truth.)

 

[Strauss]

That depends on the company. "Due process" with a union behind you is more like a civil proceeding where you have real representation. "Due process" without a union is more like having a U.S. military lawyer defend you at Guantanamo in a U.S. military tribunal. (A smiley icon does not minimize the truth.)

That depends on the union as well. You also need to define what in your mind you mean by "due process". There are two types of "due process", procedural and substantive. I suspect based upon your responses that you are talking about procedural. No mid to large company that I'm aware of doesn't provide procedural due process when required. Note, even under union contracts it isn't always necessary to provide what you in artfully call a "civil proceeding".

US military lawyers are some of the finest individuals with the highest integrity I've had the pleasure of litigating with. You just showed your ass, confirmed how little you know and that your opinions are shaped totally by the liberal media.