Torture Memos

[teh_fuzz]

As part of an ongoing court case, the Department of Justice released on Thursday memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel between 2002 and 2005, detailing techniques used for interrogation of terrorism suspects. In doing so, President Obama declared:

"While I believe strongly in transparency and accountability, I also believe that in a dangerous world, the United States must sometimes carry out intelligence operations and protect information that is classified for purposes of national security. I have already fought for that principle in court and will do so again in the future. However, after consulting with the Attorney General, the Director of National Intelligence, and others, I believe that exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release."​

Certain aspects of the documents are redacted -- including the names of CIA officials -- but the evidence is of enough weight that Senate Judiciary chairman Patrick Leahy already felt compelled to offer the following statement:

These legal memoranda demonstrate in alarming detail exactly what the Bush administration authorized for "high value detainees" in U.S. custody. The techniques are chilling... We cannot continue to look the other way; we need to understand how these policies were formed if we are to ensure that this can never happen again. This is why my proposal for a Commission of Inquiry is necessary.​

One former top official in the Bush administration blasted the publication of the memos, calling it "unbelievable," reports Politico:

"It's damaging because these are techniques that work, and by Obama's action today, we are telling the terrorists what they are," the official said. "We have laid it all out for our enemies. This is totally unnecessary. ... Publicizing the techniques does grave damage to our national security by ensuring they can never be used again -- even in a ticking-time- bomb scenario where thousands or even millions of American lives are at stake."
"I don't believe Obama would intentionally endanger the nation, so it must be that he thinks either 1. the previous administration, including the CIA professionals who have defended this program, is lying about its importance and effectiveness, or 2. he believes we are no longer really at war and no longer face the kind of grave threat to our national security this program has protected against."
​

The Huffington Post has obtained the memos and is putting them on the website for the public to view. Please help us read through the material and report back what you find.

Memo Part 1
Memo Part 2
Memo Part 3
Memo Part 4
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/document-preview.aspx?doc_id=5488275

Simulated drowning, muscle fatigue, slapping and pushing around... OH DEAR GOD THE ATROCITIES!!!
oh and btw, aren't these the folks that would stone a woman if she so much as dared to walk out of the house with out a male escorting her?... or oh wait, the people that will cut limbs off for crimes right?




/discuss!

 

[Tim]

It's not a matter of whether you think that these things are considered torture or not. It's a matter of what our laws and international laws say about it. You do realize that we tied and convicted Nazi's of water boarding, right?
And it doesn't matter what these people do, it's all about what we do and if we follow our own laws. That's what makes us better, we ARE a nation of laws and if we just throw them to the curb, then we are no better than them.

Bottom line, torture is against the law and we broke the law. The people who were complicit in the torture need to be put on trial for their actions.

 

[Alien Allen]

Bush was a clueless moron who did the impossible and matched Carter for incompetence. So I am not going to defend him. But having said that if anybody thinks we are still as safe now with this clown Obama in office they need to join the real world.

This crap is all about getting even with Bush. Do anything to continue to discredit him. In doing so Obama is putting politics over the safety of our nation. The way he handled this is sickening.

 

[Tim]

Bush was a clueless moron who did the impossible and matched Carter for incompetence. So I am not going to defend him. But having said that if anybody thinks we are still as safe now with this clown Obama in office they need to join the real world.

This crap is all about getting even with Bush. Do anything to continue to discredit him. In doing so Obama is putting politics over the safety of our nation. The way he handled this is sickening.

WTH are you talking about? Putting politics over the safety of our nation? He just announced yesterday that the justice department will not go after any CIA operatives that were complicit in torture since the order came from the White house. In fact, he said that the US government will defend any of these CIA guys if any lawsuits were brought against them for free.

I disagree with what he said yesterday. I believe that if they are guilty, then they need to be brought to justice.

 

[Alien Allen]

WTH are you talking about? Putting politics over the safety of our nation? He just announced yesterday that the justice department will not go after any CIA operatives that were complicit in torture since the order came from the White house. In fact, he said that the US government will defend any of these CIA guys if any lawsuits were brought against them for free.

I disagree with what he said yesterday. I believe that if they are guilty, then they need to be brought to justice.

Sure it political. You liberals are not satisfyed with just winning. You want to rehash the past and make an example of Bush and his policies. At the expense of letting everybody know what has been going on.

I am tired of the bleeding hearts worrying about this crap we did to enemies. If the situation was turned around and they had us captive we would have our fingers and heads cut off and the bodies thrown in the river. These are terrorists. They deserve nothing as they give nothing. And half of the crap I would not even call torture in the traditional sense. Ask Danny Pearls wife about torture.

 

[Minor Axis]

This crap is all about getting even with Bush. Do anything to continue to discredit him. In doing so Obama is putting politics over the safety of our nation. The way he handled this is sickening.

I disagree. Bush discredited himself. If laws were broken, those responsible should be held accountable. If you robbed a bank, you'd end up in jail. Expect an equal standard for our leaders. However, I question the ability for anyone on the left or the right to get a fair and equitable judgment these days. We are so politically divided as evidenced by discussions in this forum, if it is a reflection of the country as a whole, we are in real trouble.

 

[Minor Axis]

My gosh, detainees were tortured trying to get them to admit Iraq and Saddam Hussein was behind the 911 attack? If true, this would sink us solidly down to 3rd world dictator moral status. According to Cheney, torture was only used to prevent future attacks. Read this Truthout link for more.


Detainee strapped on to board
"Ok, tell us about Iraq and the 911 attacks."

"I don't know what you are talking about."

Gurgle, Gurgle, Gurgle.

"Ok now tell us about Iraq and 911!"

"I don't know!"

Gurgle, Gurgle, Gurgle.

"If you don't tell us, we might kill you!"

"I..."

Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

"Ok, stop, yes Iraq was behind it!"

---------------------------------------
Question: Is this detainee telling the truth?
Question: Is there anyone here who actually thinks this is an effective means of gathering accurate intelligence??

 

[Minor Axis]

Gen Ricardo Sanchez Calls for Truth Commission. This was the top U.S. commander in Iraq. So Righties, is this guy still a partriot or is he now a traitor?

 

[Alien Allen]

old new aint it?

I love these guys who all of a sudden have balls once they retire.

 

[Minor Axis]

old new aint it?

I love these guys who all of a sudden have balls once they retire.

I take it you were not in the military? In the military speaking out usually only occurs in most dire screw-my-career circumstances. Now this guy is retired, so no problem...

 

[Alien Allen]

I take it you were not in the military? In the military speaking out usually only occurs in most dire screw-my-career circumstances. Now this guy is retired, so no problem...

You are correct I was not in the military. I was in the 72 draft and my number came up but the draft was canceled.

I understand the point about not speaking out to keep a job. But when it comes to something this important and a guy is near retirement I find it all suspect. He probably could have resigned and kept a pension although at a bit less

Would it not be nice to hold the military to the same standards that we would like for society.

There are people that give up their jobs and are fired in the private sector when they find fault.

 

[MoonOwl]

I came across this quote and thought I'd post it here (I hope you don't mind teh_fuzz)


“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775…



This statement was right then, and it is right now.


Torture is completely antithetical to every single core American value as represented by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.


Moreover, when we torture, it gives other nations' military forces carte blanche to torture American soldiers and nationals.


Again, lets hold those responsible accountable. From the Top down.:horse

 

[Minor Axis]

You are correct I was not in the military. I was in the 72 draft and my number came up but the draft was canceled.

I understand the point about not speaking out to keep a job. But when it comes to something this important and a guy is near retirement I find it all suspect. He probably could have resigned and kept a pension although at a bit less

Would it not be nice to hold the military to the same standards that we would like for society.

There are people that give up their jobs and are fired in the private sector when they find fault.

You mean whistle blowers?

The environment in the military is very "anti-speaking out", or I should say it's very risky from a career standpoint. BTW, I was not making any personal judgments about you one way or the other based on military experience or not.