To obectivists (realists)

[All Else Failed]

"To the realists.— You sober people who feel well armed against passion and fantasies and would like to turn your emptiness into a matter of pride and an ornament: you call yourselves realists and hint that the world really is the way it appears to you. As if reality stood unveiled before you only, and you yourselves were perhaps the best part of it—Oh you beloved images of Sais! But in your unveiled state are not even you still very passionate and dark creatures compared to fish, and still far too similar to an artist in love?— And what is "reality" for an artist in love! You are still burdened with those estimates of things that have their origin in the passions and loves of former centuries! Your sobriety still contains a secret and inextinguishable drunkenness! Your love of "reality," for example—oh, that is a primeval "love"! Every feeling and sensation contains a piece of this old love; and some fantasy, some prejudice, some unreason, some ignorance, some fear, and ever so much else has contributed to it and worked on it. That mountain there! That cloud there! What is "real" in that? Subtract the phantasm and every human contribution from it, my sober friends! If you can! If you can forget your descent, your past, your training—all of your humanity and animality! There is no "reality" for us—not for you either, my sober friends,—we are not nearly as different as you think, and perhaps our good will to transcend intoxication is as respectable as your faith that you are altogether incapable of intoxication."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[DavyBoy]

I'd like the abridged edition, if I may :|

seriously, I read that and I'm still only about 50% sure I know what he's talking about.

What are your views on it, AEF?

 

[Dana]

I got to the word sober and became disinterested... LOL jk

 

[All Else Failed]

I'd like the abridged edition, if I may :|

seriously, I read that and I'm still only about 50% sure I know what he's talking about.

What are your views on it, AEF?

It makes perfect sense: Objectivists are fooling themselves if they think all things are objective.

 

[DavyBoy]

Yes, but can you explain exactly what objectivists are? What do they believe?

I'm not criticising Nietzsche, I'm criticising his big words and my small brain

 

[All Else Failed]

Yes, but can you explain exactly what objectivists are? What do they believe?

I'm not criticising Nietzsche, I'm criticising his big words and my small brain

They believe the most important thing in life is "rational self interest". Meaning, you are what matters in the end, and what you get. So basically greed is held up to be a high moral standard.

They also love to see things in total black and white circumstances. There is no in between with objectivists. They also are RABID capitalists (Carthage).

if you want criticism of it's problems:

Critiques Of Libertarianism: Criticisms of Objectivism (or Ayn Rand).

 

[Bandit]

right.
if i become an objectionist will i be rich?

 

[GraceAbounds]

They believe the most important thing in life is "rational self interest". Meaning, you are what matters in the end, and what you get. So basically greed is held up to be a high moral standard.

Untrue.

 

[Carthage]

Untrue.

No, he kind of hit the nail on the head. He overplayed it a little bit - it's not so much "what we get" as "What we earn and achieve with honesty and integrity", and our definition of greed is not the hedonistic or pagan version of irrational desires and instant gratification that it is often played out to be, but he just about got it.

 

[Carthage]

"To the realists.— You sober people who feel well armed against passion and fantasies and would like to turn your emptiness into a matter of pride and an ornament: you call yourselves realists and hint that the world really is the way it appears to you. As if reality stood unveiled before you only, and you yourselves were perhaps the best part of it—Oh you beloved images of Sais! But in your unveiled state are not even you still very passionate and dark creatures compared to fish, and still far too similar to an artist in love?— And what is "reality" for an artist in love! You are still burdened with those estimates of things that have their origin in the passions and loves of former centuries! Your sobriety still contains a secret and inextinguishable drunkenness! Your love of "reality," for example—oh, that is a primeval "love"! Every feeling and sensation contains a piece of this old love; and some fantasy, some prejudice, some unreason, some ignorance, some fear, and ever so much else has contributed to it and worked on it. That mountain there! That cloud there! What is "real" in that? Subtract the phantasm and every human contribution from it, my sober friends! If you can! If you can forget your descent, your past, your training—all of your humanity and animality! There is no "reality" for us—not for you either, my sober friends,—we are not nearly as different as you think, and perhaps our good will to transcend intoxication is as respectable as your faith that you are altogether incapable of intoxication."

-Friedrich Nietzsche

Existence exists. It is an axiomatic concept. To deny existence denies any concept, including the concept of denying it. Therefore, existence exists. Now, to be conscious is to be aware of something that exists. If it were otherwise, then we would be able to bend reality to our consciousness, because it is dependent on it. But existence is identity, and we can't alter the identity of something that exists. Try sitting in a volcano and willing it not to kill you.
So, reality is real, and exists independent of your denial.
Haha.

 

[GraceAbounds]

No, he kind of hit the nail on the head. He overplayed it a little bit - it's not so much "what we get" as "What we earn and achieve with honesty and integrity", and our definition of greed is not the hedonistic or pagan version of irrational desires and instant gratification that it is often played out to be, but he just about got it.

No, he didn't almost hit the nail on the head. Realists do not believe that the most important thing in life is themselves. (at least none that I know)

They believe the most important thing in life is "rational self interest".

Meaning, you are what matters in the end, and what you get.

Now if what is meant is that it matters what you DO in the end that matters - I can go with that. But that is not how I am reading his words. Maybe I am misunderstanding. But to me it seems clear that he is not saying it is about what you contribute, but that you yourself is all that matters ... in other words only looking out for yourself and no one else. Which as I said is untrue.

So basically greed is held up to be a high moral standard.

I'm a realist and greed is in no way held to a high moral standard. Greed does not equate to anything remotely moral.

 

[All Else Failed]

Untrue.

I'm talking about Ayn Rand kind of objectivism.

 

[GraceAbounds]

I'm talking about Ayn Rand kind of objectivism.

Ok, well I'm not familiar with that. So I must be totally misunderstanding you then. Sorry bout that.

 

[All Else Failed]

All you need to know is that Ayn Rand was an angry, self absorbed bitch.

 

[Carthage]

All you need to know is that Ayn Rand was an angry, self absorbed bitch.

She wasn't angry - she was really a very happy person.

 

[All Else Failed]

Happy, perhaps. A complete bitch, of course.

 

[Carthage]

Happy, perhaps. A complete bitch, of course.

Yeah...wasn't she great?

 

[All Else Failed]

No and I'm glad she's dead.

 

[DavyBoy]

All you need to know is that Ayn Rand was an angry, self absorbed bitch.

Who is this woman? How would you rate her on a scale of Mother Theresa being 0 and Hitler being 10 (with possibly 11 for Ann Coulter)?

 

[Carthage]

Who is this woman? How would you rate her on a scale of Mother Theresa being 0 and Hitler being 10 (with possibly 11 for Ann Coulter)?

She was the founder of the greatest philosophy ever: Objectivism.
She couldn't be rated on that scale. She founded the principle of man living with his hapiness (rational hapiness) as his highest goal, along with his own personal achivement. She also believed in all men being great and amazing human beings worthy of life, unless they rejected life. So she wasn't at all like Mother Theresa, who gave her whole life up for others, nor like Hitler, who was a primitive collectivist shit-bag.

No and I'm glad she's dead.

Hey! Only killers should have death wished upon them, not peaceful old ladies!