The vicarious redemption of Jesus would be immoral.

[Greatest I am]

The vicarious redemption of Jesus would be immoral.

We have all heard the arguments that justify the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.

We are asked to believe that the death of an innocent man somehow absolves us of our responsibility for our sins and that this is good justice because it is his way of showing his great love for mankind.


This usurping of our responsibilities is happily accepted by believers and they thank God profusely for it and look forward to a clear path to heaven.

To them and God, it is then ok for all of us to earn heaven through the sacrifice and death of an innocent victim.

Yet whenever I ask the following question, I never get an affirmative reply that confirms this view.

Would you teach your child that it is ok for him/her, after doing some faux pas at school, to allow some other child to voluntarily accept his or her punishment?

Happily, no believer has yet indicated they would so they understand the morality of the question yet at the same time, say that it is quite ok for them to hide behind Jesus as he is punishment for their faux pas.

In other words, they tell their children to --do as I say and not as I do.

A double standard.

We seem to be asking our children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up ourselves to our own.

Why is it immoral to place our burden on a school mate, while at the same time, think it moral for us to ride freely to heaven on the death of Jesus?

Regards
DL

 

[Dakota Jim]

Get a job.

 

[Alien Allen]

what kind of response is that supposed to be??:wtf:

 

[Zorak]

The vicarious redemption of Jesus would be immoral.

Jesus doesn't need redemption, and he certainly doesn't need to get it through us. You're a tad confused I think.

 

[Kyle B]

You bring up interesting points, but ones that are not aligned with Christian doctrine at all.

The sacrifice of a human being for my sins would be very immoral. Somebody else should not have to die because I made bad choices in life. However, Christian doctrine does not teach that God merely decided to kill Jesus as punishment for everyone.

We first have to examine the Christian belief of the trinity, which means that the father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one God. Thus it wasn't just a human being who "died" but rather it was God. Notice, I put the word 'died' in quotations because Christians also believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible, the price of sin is spiritual death. Thus, everyone should go to hell for their sins. However, Christians believe that God didn't want this to happen, he wanted to give humans a way to go to heaven despite their sinful ways. Thus, the Father sent the Son into earth where he lived a sinless life and performed miracles. Jesus was eventually tortured, crucified, and was resurrected. God (through Jesus) paid the price of man's sin by suffering, dying, descending into hell, and then being resurrected.

If we look back at the concept of the trinity, we see that Christians do not believe that God merely killed someone for the sins of all, but rather endured the punishment himself, so that humans wouldn't have to.

You see the difference between your viewpoint and that of Christians? You believe that an innocent man was sacrificed by God as punishment for all. Christians believe that God endured the suffering, humiliation, and 'death', so that humans would not have to.

 

[Greatest I am]

Get a job.

Did I hit a Christians conscious?
Thank God for that.

Sorry to have burst you bubble.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Jesus doesn't need redemption, and he certainly doesn't need to get it through us. You're a tad confused I think.

I speak of his redemption of our sins. Not his own.
You are thinking in reverse.

Care to look at the morality of it or will you just ignore the immorality of the issue?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

what kind of response is that supposed to be??:wtf:

The response of a believer who does not like the implications of what he has to believe to maintain his fantasy God.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

You bring up interesting points, but ones that are not aligned with Christian doctrine at all.

The sacrifice of a human being for my sins would be very immoral. Somebody else should not have to die because I made bad choices in life. However, Christian doctrine does not teach that God merely decided to kill Jesus as punishment for everyone.

We first have to examine the Christian belief of the trinity, which means that the father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one God. Thus it wasn't just a human being who "died" but rather it was God. Notice, I put the word 'died' in quotations because Christians also believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

According to the Bible, the price of sin is spiritual death. Thus, everyone should go to hell for their sins. However, Christians believe that God didn't want this to happen, he wanted to give humans a way to go to heaven despite their sinful ways. Thus, the Father sent the Son into earth where he lived a sinless life and performed miracles. Jesus was eventually tortured, crucified, and was resurrected. God (through Jesus) paid the price of man's sin by suffering, dying, descending into hell, and then being resurrected.

If we look back at the concept of the trinity, we see that Christians do not believe that God merely killed someone for the sins of all, but rather endured the punishment himself, so that humans wouldn't have to.

You see the difference between your viewpoint and that of Christians? You believe that an innocent man was sacrificed by God as punishment for all. Christians believe that God endured the suffering, humiliation, and 'death', so that humans would not have to.

Firstly, God cannot die.
Second, if Jesus is God, who was he speaking to--why have you forsaken me--. Who is you?

Further, to think that a creator has to die because His creations do not do as designed is rather droll.

What kind of work do you do and would you suicide yourself because something you made did not quite work right?

Let's try to make sense.

Regards
DL

 

[Kyle B]

Firstly, God cannot die.
Second, if Jesus is God, who was he speaking to--why have you forsaken me--. Who is you?

Further, to think that a creator has to die because His creations do not do as designed is rather droll.

What kind of work do you do and would you suicide yourself because something you made did not quite work right?

Let's try to make sense.

Regards
DL

Once again, you're questions are common questions that could be easily answered by a little research. I covered many of the same points you brought up in this post in my last reply to you.

You say God cannot die. God never died, Jesus' earthly body did.

When Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?", he was speaking to God the Father, another person of the trinity.

Your third point is your opinion, I'm not going to try to argue with that.

Your fourth point is also derived from your opinion.

 

[pjbleek]

Once again, you're questions are common questions that could be easily answered by a little research. I covered many of the same points you brought up in this post in my last reply to you.

You say God cannot die. God never died, Jesus' earthly body did.

When Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?", he was speaking to God the Father, another person of the trinity.

Your third point is your opinion, I'm not going to try to argue with that.

Your fourth point is also derived from your opinion.

so...can we just stop this thread from spreading...please?

 

[Greatest I am]

so...can we just stop this thread from spreading...please?

Christ yes, hide it quick.

Can't have Christians questioning their dogma now even if it makes no moral sense.

Regards
DL

 

[All Else Failed]

Jesus Sacrificed nothing. He "died", then CAME BACK. Thats not a sacrifice.

 

[Greatest I am]

Jesus Sacrificed nothing. He "died", then CAME BACK. Thats not a sacrifice.

Agreed.

A clear view. You are definitely not a Christian.

Regards
DL

 

[All Else Failed]

Yeah, a sacrifice is something that you give up permanently. Jesus didn't give up his life when he's supposed to be eternal in the first place.

 

[Dana]

I stand by my statement... Jesus was a Scientologist... He could turn water into wine, he could appear before civilizations continents away... he was clearly OT.

 

[Greatest I am]

Yeah, a sacrifice is something that you give up permanently. Jesus didn't give up his life when he's supposed to be eternal in the first place.

Agreed.

Regards
DL

 

[Zorak]

If you're an atheist, or theiphobic, then Jesus certainly made a sacrifice.

And you can see how the Christ tribe started: Along comes a man of such charisma he is mythologised as a messiah even then, and then he is crucified (and the crucifixion almost all historians agree took place, indeed under the orders of Pontius Pilate) for crimes that he may not have committed. IF that's not dying for someone elses sins, I don't know what is.

In that respect, religion is irrelevant.

 

[Grin]

The vicarious redemption of Jesus would be immoral.

We have all heard the arguments that justify the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.

We are asked to believe that the death of an innocent man somehow absolves us of our responsibility for our sins and that this is good justice because it is his way of showing his great love for mankind.


This usurping of our responsibilities is happily accepted by believers and they thank God profusely for it and look forward to a clear path to heaven.

To them and God, it is then ok for all of us to earn heaven through the sacrifice and death of an innocent victim.

Yet whenever I ask the following question, I never get an affirmative reply that confirms this view.

Would you teach your child that it is ok for him/her, after doing some faux pas at school, to allow some other child to voluntarily accept his or her punishment?

Happily, no believer has yet indicated they would so they understand the morality of the question yet at the same time, say that it is quite ok for them to hide behind Jesus as he is punishment for their faux pas.

In other words, they tell their children to --do as I say and not as I do.

A double standard.

We seem to be asking our children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up ourselves to our own.

Why is it immoral to place our burden on a school mate, while at the same time, think it moral for us to ride freely to heaven on the death of Jesus?

Regards
DL

Why are you still thinking about these things, dude? Most of us have moved on.

 

[All Else Failed]

If you're an atheist, or theiphobic, then Jesus certainly made a sacrifice.

And you can see how the Christ tribe started: Along comes a man of such charisma he is mythologised as a messiah even then, and then he is crucified (and the crucifixion almost all historians agree took place, indeed under the orders of Pontius Pilate) for crimes that he may not have committed. IF that's not dying for someone elses sins, I don't know what is.

In that respect, religion is irrelevant.

It would have been a sacrifice if Jesus stayed dead, then he would have truly given up something, that is what a sacrifice IS. But no, he supposedly rose again, and since Jesus is really god, he has eternal life, couldn't have really "died", and knew he would have risen again. So no, there wasn't a real sacrifice.