The Middle East - We must lead the world

[Mercury]

So, on a different thread discussing religious tolerance, I found a new question and topic arise in my mind regarding the Middle East.

Why are we there?

Now, the common answer that we would hear is, "Because we need to fight terrorism and rid the world of their evil ways."

This was particularly said in the War on Terror and the "social" reason behind our invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq after September 11th.

Here is what I am having trouble with. By our own law, the United States cannot conquer nor annihilate an entire region or peoples. As such, the only thing that we can do is invade, remove a regime and put in place a regime that will be U.S. tolerant (we hope.) I won't get into whether or not that is "okay" or not but rather this is the basic idea behind our international military campaigns. Now, with that, considering the ancient history and immense conflict that there is between the East and West societies, is this really possible?

Ignoring whether or not this type of international activity is moral or not, is this something that can really work? Can we really remove a regime, place a new one in it's stead and then they become U.S. or Western friendly? Will the quite different laws of Islam that are embedded into the common person over there exist in tranquility with non-Islam? Is the cultural differences between the East and West so paramount that it is impossible to conduct the type of war that has been going on?

I would think that the answer would be no, that this type of activity won't do much to help the relationships between the East and West. So if it is truly our of fear of an enemy that is so "reckless" and "hateful of the West" why knowingly ... "pussy foot" (in lack of a better word) in the Middle East? Morally, we know we can't just "nuke em" all and be done with it.

Now, another big reason for our continued efforts over there is our ties with Israel. Now this is something that I must admit needs more research on. Why such a huge bond with them? So many voice their concern of "leaving Israel to the wolves" so to speak. That the entire nation of Israel would be wiped off the planet if the United States was not a military ally.

I always hear such quick and basically "thoughtless" answers to our presence there. "We can't let the terrorists win." "Israel is a close ally and needs our help." "We must lead the world."

So what do you think? Why are we there? Should we be? Are the Islamist Extremists and terrorists so hateful towards Western society that they would continue to attack if our presence in their lands were removed or toned down?

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Why are we there?

For the same reasons that the UN are there. There are a multitude of problems in the Middle East that they have proved unable to resolve by themselves, and it's destabilising the world economy by threatening to disrupt oil supplies.

So what do you think? Why are we there? Should we be? Are the Islamist Extremists and terrorists so hateful towards Western society that they would continue to attack if our presence in their lands were removed or toned down?

Yes, undoubtedly we should continue to maintain as much peace as is possible, and yes, there are fundamentalist cults that would continue to attack the West if the West gets sloppy and complacent again.

 

[Mercury]

I am honestly surprised by your response, Kakapo. It was very well said. :thumbup

It is all in the economic interests of the rest of the world?

*DISCLAIMER : BTW, those who know me somewhat well here know that I am not one to bait people nor usually have a real solid conviction on anything, I just like to philosophize over stuff*

Okay, now that that is out of the way hehe.

Do you think that it would be in the best interest of the rest of the world if a more stricter military approach was taken on the Middle East?

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

No, the more sovereignty we usurp from the Middle Eastern nations, the more popular the extremist cults will become. There has been asymmetrical warfare in the Middle east for generations, time and again the extremists have proved that military hardware is no match for the element of surprise. A smaller, more flexible approach to tackling terrorism is needed, but it will never happen because the arms manufacturing industries have too much to lose.

 

[Mercury]

No, the more sovereignty we usurp from the Middle Eastern nations, the more popular the extremist cults will become. There has been asymmetrical warfare in the Middle east for generations, time and again the extremists have proved that military hardware is no match for the element of surprise. A smaller, more flexible approach to tackling terrorism is needed, but it will never happen because the arms manufacturing industries have too much to lose.

Ah, I see what you are saying. Such as more covert action rather than conventional warfare? Now that is something that I have often wondered about. Why aren't we using a more tactical, stealthy approach? Arms manufacturing is definitely a good call. Money money money ...

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

Stirling had the right idea in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stirling

Why set up huge bases and divert much of your resource to maintaining and defending them?

 

[Mercury]

Stirling had the right idea in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stirling

Why set up huge bases and divert much of your resource to maintaining and defending them?

Interesting. I never had heard of him and didn't really know how the SAS came to be. Thanks for the information!

 

[Minor Axis]

Why are we there? Oil. Influence in the region based on our need for oil. Influence in the region because it serves our interests to have a say. This is not ment to be a disparaging remark, just a fact when it comes to the influence most countries desire to exert around the world.

Stirling had the right idea in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stirling

Why set up huge bases and divert much of your resource to maintaining and defending them?

Eisenhower in the 1950s warned of the military industrial complex, in essence it's tendency to grow and become a philosophy to be resisted.

My take of recent events:

1. The U.S./other Western powers involved in the Middle East have reaped what we have sewn, or at a minimum don't have clean hands. Even though the U.S. officially helped the Arab Spring, before that it was proceeded by at least 70 years of working with/propping up dictators/royal families/corrosive leaders who have not taken care of their populations resulting in an abundance of people who for nothing better (my take), have turned to fundamentalist religion with it's own manipulistic leaders.
2. Because of historical circumstances, Middle Eastern Muslim Fundamentalism is, or has become one of the most militaristic, intolerant, dangerous religious movements in the world.

 

[Alien Allen]

There is no way we can control the situation over there. The best we can do is manage it.

Which IMO means we should get the hell out. Support Israel the best we can. And covertly fight the enemies over there.

And the reason we need to support Israel is to ensure we have a sizable ally in the region. It has to do with oil but not IMO to control oil. If we wanted to we could have done that. It is to ensure the free flow of oil is always available.

Eventually we will find an alternative energy and then the world will be fighting over the control of water. It is never ending. And will never change. There always has been and always will be the desire to conquer and control. It is in the human DNA in my opinion.

 

[Kyle B]

It seems complex. People say it's oil but the US only gets a small amount of it from the middle east. I'm sure it's a long complex list of issues, but I don't know enough about the geo-political issues of each country in the middle east in relation to the United States' interest with those countries.

The Iran VS Israel issue certainly makes things complex. Plus, you have countries like China and Russia which also want influence in the region, further complicating the issue.

 

[Kakapo Dundee]

It seems complex. People say it's oil but the US only gets a small amount of it from the middle east. .

It is complex, because the price of oil is decided by global demand, and the worlds does not end at the US border.:humm:

 

[Zorak]

We're there because we live in a democratic society, and spent thousands of thousands of years getting to this point. They are lagging a few hundred behind, and that's too damn slow. So we'll go over there and depose whomever the fuck they have in power, and force a democratic government on them, whether they like it or not; because our governments are so fucking exemplary. And they better vote, because, as p diddy says- vote or die.