The Determinism vs Freewill Thread

[Atl Falcons]

This is the thread for debating about Determinism and Freewill. Post your thoughts and opinions.

My opinion? I sort of think it's weird that we don't make decisions ourselves and that our choices have been predetermined based off our past experiences, environment, etc. And that the chemicals in our brains trigger responses and actions based off of these experiences and environment that we have had. And I want to believe in Freewill simply because - like I said before - I think Determinism is a weird idea, plus I like the idea of making conscious choices much better than everything we do be predetermined. But I mean c'mon...there's no real argument for Freewill that is based off facts or a reasonable explanation, but there is a reasonable argument for Determinism (what I just said: past experiences and our environment trigger responses and actions that we think to be our 'choices'). So ultimately, I'm leaning towards believing in Determinism mainly because it carries a good argument, while Freewill does not.

I'm sure there's much more to this debate than what I've just said, this is just the little that I know about it. So what's your opinion; do you believe in Freewill, or are you a Determinist and why?

If you have no clue what I'm talking about, Google it...and if you don't care, please don't post.

 

[SloMoFo]

freewill..although our past can effect our choices, it takes a strong person to really put that past behind them and do the unthinkable. For most the past leaves on bitter and jaded. But there are those people that take negative experiences and turn them into something positive. And it is those people I greatly admire.

The only thing with freewill is being able to accept the consequences of our actions, with nothing being predetermined there is no one to blame for any shortcomings in our lives. But I am a firm beleiver we can create our own destiny if we really set our mind to it.

 

[Atl Falcons]

Would anyone else like to touch on this? This debate has been going on for centuries.

 

[TheOriginalJames]

Nah I have no opinion on this, because I don't feel like being told that I should change it if it doesn't agree with yours. :jig

 

[Atl Falcons]

Nah I have no opinion on this, because I don't feel like being told that I should change it if it doesn't agree with yours. :jig

That's a shame LeBron.

 

[SilentEyz]

All of life is based upon freewill

Including the Free will to make all your choices based upon your experiances and environment.

Perhaps as Adults we have more inclination to make these choices based on that information, But we all ow ourselves to process that information, we allow ourselves to allow our past experiances to help us decide how to do things, accept things, Whatever.. The point is we CHOOSE to depend on these to make our choices and that in itself is free will.

But the best example of free will.. Watch a child, they act on free will, they have very little past to help them think and decide what they should do.

That is why it is free will, No one makes you say yes or no to a situation based on what happened last time, You do that yourself, thats your free will baby, No one makes you, you have the choice to learn from it, or repeat it.. its all up to you.

 

[memento_mori]

*uses dark necromancy to resurrect dead thread*

the history of free will vs determinism is interesting. Determinism was originally the predominant thought of the catholic church until people started questioning "if this is all part of God's plan, why is there so much evil in the world?"

so Thomas Aquinas came up with the concept of God giving us free will, which would mean all the evil we caused in the world were our faults, and not God's.

but then Isaac Newton came along and had all his fancy mathy physics equations that could predict how objects moved and stuff and strongly supported determinism. he thought that if he could see everything that ever happened in the universe, he could predict what will happen in the future. and people believed him, because he had the reputation of being right.

newton's beliefs made a rift between science's determinism and the church's free will. until one day, a nazi scientist named Heisenburg came up with his uncertainty principle, which basically said we can't completely predict the motion of sub-atomic particles because by observing particles we were altering their motion with the photons we reflect off our eyes. and the opposition of measuring spin and speed and stuff.

so today, it seems free will is pretty accepted.

but it's interesting to think...

"everyone's born with an expiration date."

 

[All Else Failed]

Interesting article on freewill.

Ethical Culture Society of Bergen County, NJ: Free Will: The Last Great Lie




Free Will

 

[memento_mori]

"If we, indeed, have free will, then we can take credit when we choose to do good, and feel a thrill of moral superiority when we contemplate those who have chosen to do bad. Indeed, on those occasions when it is the obligation of we good people to punish those bad people – you will notice that genuinely evil people only appear in the third person: it is never “we evil people” or “you evil people” but always “those evil people” – on those occasions when, as I say, it is our obligation to visit upon “evil-doers” the suffering they deserve, we can unload our pent-up feelings of sadism and aggression in a socially-approved way, and we can enjoy an especially delicious sense of how much better we are than whoever it is whose turn it is that day to be executed or otherwise humiliated. Good as it feels to do the right thing, it often feels even better to have the opportunity to look down on other people who are doing the wrong thing."


that sounds pretty cynical. how about the people that feel powerless to do anything because they believe in predestination? how about the people who take responsibility for their actions because they believe in free will?

 

[All Else Failed]

"If we, indeed, have free will, then we can take credit when we choose to do good, and feel a thrill of moral superiority when we contemplate those who have chosen to do bad. Indeed, on those occasions when it is the obligation of we good people to punish those bad people – you will notice that genuinely evil people only appear in the third person: it is never “we evil people” or “you evil people” but always “those evil people” – on those occasions when, as I say, it is our obligation to visit upon “evil-doers” the suffering they deserve, we can unload our pent-up feelings of sadism and aggression in a socially-approved way, and we can enjoy an especially delicious sense of how much better we are than whoever it is whose turn it is that day to be executed or otherwise humiliated. Good as it feels to do the right thing, it often feels even better to have the opportunity to look down on other people who are doing the wrong thing."


that sounds pretty cynical. how about the people that feel powerless to do anything because they believe in predestination? how about the people who take responsibility for their actions because they believe in free will?

Then I suppose they are just reacting to their own self imposed illusion of free will.

 

[memento_mori]

Then I suppose they are just reacting to their own self imposed illusion of free will.

well then i suppose they are just choosing to react to their self imposed illusion of free will.

 

[icecuban]

i still think it is just a paradox of nature and existence. the two are linked together. the gift of doing what we want is exactly what we need to allow us to fullful our own destinies. i think life and existance are just so heavy, that i cant see this not being an option. two opposing forces joined at the hip sounds about as heavy as it can get, as life is. i can see the awe and magnificance and sheer craziness of this universe we live in, to allow not just one of these options to be correct, but amazingly, both!
i mean, lets say life was a movie, and i was its filmer. but i can see the whole movie, where the actors do not know they are in it. the actors are actually acting on freewill, and with their freewill, they reach a heart warming ending. but i already know what the ending is from my point of view, because it has already passed in my eyes. but that does not change the fact that they were acting on freewill, only that the conclutions to be for told.
man, this is really hard to explain, are there any paradoxes that are easy to explain? lol.
i mean, the fate lies in the fact that time really doesnt move forward, it just expands itself. there is no new seconds, just one second getting bigger, but to us, it feels like time is always turning into a new second, when it really isnt, its just matter moving outwards.
if someone had the supreme intellegence to see where time and all matter expand to, then u see freewill's long course through space, even from the first movement.
ok, i tried, maybe next time,lol