The Capitalist System

[edgray]

Saw this from the US labour movement and thought I'd share it with you all.

It's basically spot on. We (the bottom tier) really don't need the people above, they need us.

Time for a change.

 

[porterjack]

talking about a revolution

 

[All Else Failed]

nah I'm more of the second tier (from bottom up)


and what do you want to do?

Install communism or something?

 

[edgray]

nah I'm more of the second tier (from bottom up)

and what do you want to do?

Install communism or something?

I don't think the structure of "communist" Russia or China is any different, so no.

 

[All Else Failed]

I don't think the structure of "communist" Russia or China is any different, so no.

What would you like in its place then?

 

[edgray]

What would you like in its place then?

a system based on equality, technological advancement and the carrying capacity of the Earth.

 

[All Else Failed]

a system based on equality, technological advancement and the carrying capacity of the Earth.

well if you want a responsible carrying capacity for sustainability equality has to go straight out the window

 

[Francis]

Saw this from the US labour movement and thought I'd share it with you all.

It's basically spot on. We (the bottom tier) really don't need the people above, they need us.

Time for a change.

Why Ed, I never knew you were Kelvin in disguise..

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1459722&postcount=17

 

[All Else Failed]

and society is not that stratified

 

[edgray]

well if you want a responsible carrying capacity for sustainability equality has to go straight out the window

No, a sustainable future has to have equality as it's central foundation. Otherwise it's just like it is now.

Why Ed, I never knew you were Kelvin in disguise..

http://www.offtopicz.net/showpost.php?p=1459722&postcount=17

I've got him on my ignore list.

and society is not that stratified

No you're right, it's more so.

 

[Minor Axis]

Capitalism historically has made the most people wealthy, and for 200 hundred years has been very successful in the U.S., but it seems to be fracturing now- Greed is becoming the predominant morality.

Has the human race always been greedy bastards or will we finally advance to the next level: Looking out for the species as a whole, not just what's in it for me? Tricky subject. Are we all really just about "me"?

 

[All Else Failed]

No, a sustainable future has to have equality as it's central foundation. Otherwise it's just like it is now.

Well that is the problem


how do you expect to have a sustainable future when there are already too many people consuming?


You can talk about environmentalism all day, but when it comes down to it, the main problem is how many people are alive.


So how do you plan to reduce this number?

No you're right, it's more so.

explain

 

[edgray]

Well that is the problem

how do you expect to have a sustainable future when there are already too many people consuming?

You can talk about environmentalism all day, but when it comes down to it, the main problem is how many people are alive.

So how do you plan to reduce this number?

No we haven't reached the Earth's carrying capacity yet. Nature will let us know when we hit that. There's plenty to go around right now if technology was used and we stopped wasting our time on petty politics, wars and capital gain.

 

[edgray]

explain

well now there's more layers at the bottom I'd say. We have underclasses of unemployed people living in poverty, and at the top we have the joyous addition of corporate powers.

 

[edgray]

Capitalism historically has made the most people wealthy, and for 200 hundred years has been very successful in the U.S., but it seems to be fracturing now- Greed is becoming the predominant morality.

Has the human race always been greedy bastards or will we finally advance to the next level: Looking out for the species as a whole, not just what's in it for me? Tricky subject. Are we all really just about "me"?

It's created more poverty than wealthy, created small concentrations of power, destroyed democracy and enslaved people around the globe. Not to mention the environmental destruction.

Humans are just a product of our societies. And we live in sick, twisted societies. We need to change that before we can change en masse.

 

[All Else Failed]

No we haven't reached the Earth's carrying capacity yet. Nature will let us know when we hit that. There's plenty to go around right now if technology was used and we stopped wasting our time on petty politics, wars and capital gain.

Are you sure? Because there are already wars going on for water. But you are satisfied to let the overpopulation problem fester until "nature" solves it for us? Oh, there is no doubt that nature will take care of us when we become too many, but why wait until that happens?


You're not giving any solution. The common response to questions like this are usually the deus ex machina response. Meaning that "The technology that will save us all is right around the corner! So keep partying till then!". This is lazy and destructive thinking.


The UN has predicted that the world population by 2050 will be around 9 billion. Wonder how the water situation will be then?


A few possible solutions:

-Stop sending aid to 3rd world countries


-Halt immigration for 20 years.

well now there's more layers at the bottom I'd say. We have underclasses of unemployed people living in poverty, and at the top we have the joyous addition of corporate powers.

Don't get me wrong, I am against abusive corporations and globalism myself. However, that is not to say that there are responsible corporations out there.

If anything, society is becoming LESS stratified due to the disappearing middle classes.

 

[edgray]

Are you sure? Because there are already wars going on for water. But you are satisfied to let the overpopulation problem fester until "nature" solves it for us? Oh, there is no doubt that nature will take care of us when we become too many, but why wait until that happens?

Wars for water? Where? All that is is a badly organised area of life. There's no reason for any water shortages or anything like that.

You're not giving any solution. The common response to questions like this are usually the deus ex machina response. Meaning that "The technology that will save us all is right around the corner! So keep partying till then!". This is lazy and destructive thinking.

My solution starts with:

Remove money & capitalism
Decisions for the human race should be made on scientific & technical knowledge
Every decision should be made to be working for a sustainable life for all

The technological solutions are there already. It's simply the lack of profit that is stopping them happening. Take Solar energy for example. If you caught my thread on it, it's plausible, right now, to power the entire globe with it.

The UN has predicted that the world population by 2050 will be around 9 billion. Wonder how the water situation will be then?

It can be fine if it's managed correctly.

A few possible solutions:

-Stop sending aid to 3rd world countries

-Halt immigration for 20 years.

What are they solutions for?

 

[All Else Failed]

Conflicts over water world wide:

http://globalpolicy.org/the-dark-side-of-natural-resources/water-in-conflict.html

http://worldwaterwars.com/





Ok so you want to remove currency...what are you going to replace it with? How will the exchange of goods and services be handled? Currency is not the problem.

So you favor a global, central power to decide everything for all of mankind?


You can talk about proper distribution of energy, food, water and techno,logy all day, but in the end it comes down to a growing consumer base consuming finite resources at an alarming rate:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...ing-up-global-resources-faster-than-ever.html


The problem is people.



My solutions are for reducing the population.

 

[edgray]

Conflicts over water world wide:

http://globalpolicy.org/the-dark-side-of-natural-resources/water-in-conflict.html

http://worldwaterwars.com/

But its not happening yet and could be solved by technology and better management. It's only the lack of money that slows that process down. Remove the money, find the solutions.

Ok so you want to remove currency...what are you going to replace it with? How will the exchange of goods and services be handled? Currency is not the problem.

So you favor a global, central power to decide everything for all of mankind?

For me to explain my views would take hours if not days. It's pretty much all summed up in the Zeitgeist movement. Money needs to be removed, as does inequality and capitalism and in fact any form of government. I agree with a global economy based on resources, not money. Technology and science applied to everyone, irrelevant of where they are or how much money they have.

It wouldn't require any kind of central power. Or any kind of power full stop.

You can talk about proper distribution of energy, food, water and techno,logy all day, but in the end it comes down to a growing consumer base consuming finite resources at an alarming rate:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ea...ing-up-global-resources-faster-than-ever.html

The problem is people.

My solutions are for reducing the population.

Your solutions are incredibly selfish. Why let the 3rd world die when it's us that's screwed them over?

We are dwindling the resources, and they are finite, I've been banging on about this for months!!! Take oil, gone in 50 years. When that goes, so do we because we're so reliant on it.

First, we need to switch the entire planet to solar power. This is possible on today's technology.
Second, we need sustainable farming solutions for everyone on the entire planet. This is also possible. That includes better water management. Also possible.
Third, everyone needs to be housed. This is obviously possible.
Fourth, everyone needs educating.

The population growth is slowing down as more countries become industrialised. It's a side effect of progress. The sooner we get everyone on the planet into a much higher standard of living, the population growth will halt.

 

[Minor Axis]

It's created more poverty than wealthy, created small concentrations of power, destroyed democracy and enslaved people around the globe. Not to mention the environmental destruction.

Humans are just a product of our societies. And we live in sick, twisted societies. We need to change that before we can change en masse.

I'm the first to admit that Capitalism focuses on self interest, and I've taken many shots at it, especially now that those at the financial reigns are only focused on making themselves insanely wealthy at everyone else's expense, but I'm hard pressed to name another economic system that has actually benefited more people in the last 200 years. The U.S. had so many things going for it that it can be argued that most of us rode the tide.

I'm happy to consider socialism as a possibility, but the problem as in all systems is that humans would be running the show. Bottom line is that corruption and greed will pull any system down.