Religous law making a comeback

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The Man

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Yes...when the world had the problem whipped....Accommodations now are bringing it back.
Should there be areas where the law of the host are disregarded and religion allowed to rule?
I say no as a host nation provided these laws to create a civilized society.
We cant very well say its ok to rob a bank on 6th street and be free from prosecution if you make it to fourth street.
I do believe in freedom of religion but IMO a religion{belief system} should not be allowed to operate outside the law.
Problem is they are operating within the law as the law says there is no law !!!

What once was localized to specific areas is now a problem in other nations as well.

How can this be stopped without the riots threats and murders?
For those unaware of what is going on below is a little reading material to brief you up on the matter.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2367/european-muslim-no-go-zones

In a nutshell it is exploiting the host.....taking advantage of liberal policies.
The very mention of it makes one a hater, phobic this or phobic that.
You will not catch abc cbs or nbc reporting any real news...why not?...Fear of retaliations and Political Correctness to blame.
 
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The Man

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I pity the sexual abuse the woman and children have to endure in these areas.

Its rather sad...that people migrate to another nation then demand to have no law enforced by the host.

What other laws could they be unhappy with other than rights and protections of women and children enforced by civilized societies.
 

Stone

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........................

What other laws could they be unhappy with other than rights and protections of women and children enforced by civilized societies.


Bizarre as it sounds, from that article you referred to in another thread, a non believer can be legally killed for just drinking from a wrong water source.
So there are likely many insignificant transgressions that are perceived as capital crimes in Sharia.

If you read this wiki on Sharia, I think you'll see that it can actually be arbitrary in many cases because it's essentially an interpretation of what a particular nation's religious leaders consider God's will to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

It's the perfect scenario for a religious dictatorship.
And if you noticed from reading that wiki, Islamic Sharia is not only influenced by the Qur'an, but also by the warlord Mohammad. So it obviously has elements designed from a militaristic pov for absolute control. Likely also as we see Sharia as being excessively draconian in it's implementation.

The founders of our legal/political system wrote separation of church and state into our Constitution to avoid such issues as above. It insures a greater protection of our freedom and rights.

I doubt Sharia will ever be accepted in the US on a federal or state level. The Hispanic population has been estimated to be a majority in the next 3 to 5 decades and it's largely devout Catholic. That along with the rest of the Protestant communities, simply will reject any national attempt. Pockets of Sharia could rise in local sectors, though.....most likely on a few county/city levels where Muslims could create influence through their numbers, but Federal and State laws would take precedence hopefully taking most of the abuses out of Sharia.
Many decades in the future if at all.
But smaller nations, as in Europe, are certainly in danger as we now read of in France and England.
This threat is now and ongoing there.
 

The Man

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The United States does bend some in regard to religion such as ss tax for the Amish and jehovah witness the right to deny shots or blood for children. ..so sharia could happen with divorce etc.
It appears the full blown sharia in Europe is due to riots and the govt gave into demands.
I think its possible it can happen here if enough Muslims migrate over..we may not declare it no go zones but rather not enter anyway.
Alot can happen in the next 50 years or so huge migrations or even policy changes of liberal value
 

mazHur

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Two Mad Men
One a Cockerel the other Hen
Talking to each other
Like father and mother
The same ole grandmother's tale
Surely they are going to Fail!
 

Stone

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The United States does bend some in regard to religion such as ss tax for the Amish and jehovah witness the right to deny shots or blood for children. ..so sharia could happen with divorce etc.
.................................................

Those are really just exemptions, MAN, rather than impositions like Sharia would be.
Ohio has a large community of Amish and Mennonites in several of it's eastern counties and though they look at life differently, they don't impose their will upon others.
Jehovah Witnesses also seem benign.

I know you are concerned about the spread of Sharia in the US, but IMO, a more likely imposition could come from our own home-grown extremist Christian fundamentalists as they have a large base already established in the US, are not considered an alien factor and if you remember, had a large influence in public opinion for invading Iraq.
I remember Falwell's call for war when he posted at World Net Daily, the need for Christians to back that war in support of their God.
I also remember many arguments at that time frame, by rabid Christian fundamentalists, calling for the rewriting of the Constitution and the insertion of a Christian theocracy.
The US public didn't buy that, the general Christian populace didn't buy that.
So, because we as a nation reject a theocracy by familiars, it's unlikely we as a nation would accept such an alien notion as Sharia from outsiders.
Our strength lies in having a large population that's accustomed to being free.
 

porterjack

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Two Mad Men
One a Cockerel the other Hen
Talking to each other
Like father and mother
The same ole grandmother's tale
Surely they are going to Fail!
Is this the poetry thread?

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk
 

mazHur

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You ought to read the verses he tries to sell :D


Okay, here is some real stuff in your support. I hope it will tire out your eyes and lead you straight to loo!! (could be your Waterloo!!;))


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/351347


Kathleen Taylor, a neurologist at Oxford University, said that recent developments suggest that we will soon be able to treat religious fundamentalism and other forms of ideological beliefs potentially harmful to society as a form of mental illness.
She made the assertion during a talk at the Hay Literary Festival in Wales on Wednesday. She said that radicalizing ideologies may soon be viewed not as being of personal choice or free will but as a category of mental disorder. She said new developments in neuroscience could make it possible to consider extremists as people with mental illness rather than criminals. She told The Times of London: "One of the surprises may be to see people with certain beliefs as people who can be treated. Someone who has for example become radicalized to a cult ideology -- we might stop seeing that as a personal choice that they have chosen as a result of pure free will and may start treating it as some kind of mental disturbance."

Read more...
Public-funded Texas school teaches Holocaust rooted in evolution
LAT: A national model for mental illness recovery Special
Kathleen Taylor appointed new Royal Bank of Canada chair
Taylor admits that the scope of what could end up being labelled "fundamentalist" is expansive. She continued: "I am not just talking about the obvious candidates like radical Islam or some of the more extreme cults. I am talking about things like the belief that it is OK to beat your children. These beliefs are very harmful but are not normally categorized as mental illness. In many ways that could be a very positive thing because there are no doubt beliefs in our society that do a heck of a lot of damage, that really do a lot of harm." The Huffington Post reports Taylor warns about the moral-ethical complications that could arise. In her book "The Brain Supremacy," she writes of the need "to be careful when it comes to developing technologies which can slip through the skull to directly manipulate the brain. They cannot be morally neutral, these world-shaping tools; when the aspect of the world in question is a human being, morality inevitably rears its hydra heads. Technologies which profoundly change our relationship with the world around us cannot simply be tools, to be used for good or evil, if they alter our basic perception of what good and evil are." [In related news: Atheism a 'suicide risk,' US Marine Corps warns] The moral-ethical dimension arises from the predictable tendency when acting on the problem, armed with a new technology, to apply to the label "fundamentalist" only to our ideological opponents, while failing to perceive the "fundamentalism" in ourselves. From the perspective of the Western mind, for instance, the tendency to equate "fundamentalism" exclusively with radical Islamism is too tempting. But how much less "fundamentalist" than an Osama bin Laden is a nation of capitalist ideologues carpet bombing civilian urban areas in Laos, Cambodia and North Korea? The jihadist's obsession with defending his Islamic ideological world view which leads him to perpetrate and justify such barbaric acts as the Woolwich murder are of the same nature as the evangelical obsession with spreading the pseudo-religious ideology of capitalism which led to such horrendous crimes as the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians in four years of carpet bombing operations by the Nixon administration caught in a vice grip of anti-communist paranoia. The power to control the mind will tend too readily to be used as weapon against our jihadist enemies while justifying the equally irrational and murderously harmful actions we term innocously "foreign policy." Some analysts are thus convinced that neuroscientists will be adopting a parochial and therefore ultimately counterproductive approach if they insist on identifying particular belief systems characteristic of ideological opponents as the primary subject for therapeutic manipulation. On a much larger and potentially more fruitful scale is the recognition that the entire domain of religious beliefs, political convictions, patriotic nationalist fervor are in themselves powerful platforms for nurturing "Us vs Them" paranoid delusional fantasies which work out destructively in a 9/11 attack or a Hiroshima/Nagasaki orgy of mass destruction. What we perceive from our perspective as our legitimate self-defensive reaction to the psychosis of the enemy, is from the perspective of the same enemy our equally malignant psychotic self-obsession. The Huffington Post reports that this is not the first time Taylor has written a book about extremism and fundamentalism. In 2006, she wrote a book about mind control titled "Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control," in which she examined the techniques that cultic groups use to influence victims. She said: "We all change our beliefs of course. We all persuade each other to do things; we all watch advertising; we all get educated and experience [religions.] Brainwashing, if you like, is the extreme end of that; it's the coercive, forceful, psychological torture type." She notes correctly that "brainwashing" which embraces all the subtle and not-so-subtle ways "we make people think things that might not be good for them, that they might not otherwise have chosen to think," is a much more pervasive social phenomenon than we are willing to recognize. As social animals we are all victims of culturally induced brainwashing whose effectiveness correlates with our inability to think outside the box of our given acculturation.
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/351347#ixzz2xWgCMleu
 

Stone

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Okay, here is some real stuff in your support. I hope it will tire out your eyes and lead you straight to loo!! (could be your Waterloo!!;))


http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/351347


Kathleen Taylor, a neurologist at Oxford University, said that recent developments suggest that we will soon be able to treat religious fundamentalism and other forms of ideological beliefs potentially harmful to society as a form of mental illness.
She made the assertion during a talk at the Hay Literary Festival in Wales on Wednesday. She said that radicalizing ideologies may soon be viewed not as being of personal choice or free will but as a category of mental disorder. She said new developments in neuroscience could make it possible to consider extremists as people with mental illness rather than criminals. She told The Times of London: "One of the surprises may be to see people with certain beliefs as people who can be treated. Someone who has for example become radicalized to a cult ideology -- we might stop seeing that as a personal choice that they have chosen as a result of pure free will and may start treating it as some kind of mental disturbance."

Read more...
Public-funded Texas school teaches Holocaust rooted in evolution
LAT: A national model for mental illness recovery Special
Kathleen Taylor appointed new Royal Bank of Canada chair
Taylor admits that the scope of what could end up being labelled "fundamentalist" is expansive. She continued: "I am not just talking about the obvious candidates like radical Islam or some of the more extreme cults. I am talking about things like the belief that it is OK to beat your children. These beliefs are very harmful but are not normally categorized as mental illness. In many ways that could be a very positive thing because there are no doubt beliefs in our society that do a heck of a lot of damage, that really do a lot of harm." The Huffington Post reports Taylor warns about the moral-ethical complications that could arise. In her book "The Brain Supremacy," she writes of the need "to be careful when it comes to developing technologies which can slip through the skull to directly manipulate the brain. They cannot be morally neutral, these world-shaping tools; when the aspect of the world in question is a human being, morality inevitably rears its hydra heads. Technologies which profoundly change our relationship with the world around us cannot simply be tools, to be used for good or evil, if they alter our basic perception of what good and evil are." [In related news: Atheism a 'suicide risk,' US Marine Corps warns] The moral-ethical dimension arises from the predictable tendency when acting on the problem, armed with a new technology, to apply to the label "fundamentalist" only to our ideological opponents, while failing to perceive the "fundamentalism" in ourselves. From the perspective of the Western mind, for instance, the tendency to equate "fundamentalism" exclusively with radical Islamism is too tempting. But how much less "fundamentalist" than an Osama bin Laden is a nation of capitalist ideologues carpet bombing civilian urban areas in Laos, Cambodia and North Korea? The jihadist's obsession with defending his Islamic ideological world view which leads him to perpetrate and justify such barbaric acts as the Woolwich murder are of the same nature as the evangelical obsession with spreading the pseudo-religious ideology of capitalism which led to such horrendous crimes as the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians in four years of carpet bombing operations by the Nixon administration caught in a vice grip of anti-communist paranoia. The power to control the mind will tend too readily to be used as weapon against our jihadist enemies while justifying the equally irrational and murderously harmful actions we term innocously "foreign policy." Some analysts are thus convinced that neuroscientists will be adopting a parochial and therefore ultimately counterproductive approach if they insist on identifying particular belief systems characteristic of ideological opponents as the primary subject for therapeutic manipulation. On a much larger and potentially more fruitful scale is the recognition that the entire domain of religious beliefs, political convictions, patriotic nationalist fervor are in themselves powerful platforms for nurturing "Us vs Them" paranoid delusional fantasies which work out destructively in a 9/11 attack or a Hiroshima/Nagasaki orgy of mass destruction. What we perceive from our perspective as our legitimate self-defensive reaction to the psychosis of the enemy, is from the perspective of the same enemy our equally malignant psychotic self-obsession. The Huffington Post reports that this is not the first time Taylor has written a book about extremism and fundamentalism. In 2006, she wrote a book about mind control titled "Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control," in which she examined the techniques that cultic groups use to influence victims. She said: "We all change our beliefs of course. We all persuade each other to do things; we all watch advertising; we all get educated and experience [religions.] Brainwashing, if you like, is the extreme end of that; it's the coercive, forceful, psychological torture type." She notes correctly that "brainwashing" which embraces all the subtle and not-so-subtle ways "we make people think things that might not be good for them, that they might not otherwise have chosen to think," is a much more pervasive social phenomenon than we are willing to recognize. As social animals we are all victims of culturally induced brainwashing whose effectiveness correlates with our inability to think outside the box of our given acculturation.
Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/351347#ixzz2xWgCMleu

Indeed.
I'm surprised you posted that mazHur, given
you've expressed so much denial of it in your own culture.
The problem exists in all cultures, from a little to a massive influence.
To be free and value freedom is the only medicine to combat extremist fundamentalism.

And this also extends to the subject of creationism versus science.
In fundamentalist Islam as in fundamentalist Christianity, the concept of science is seen as an enemy of authority and denounced as an evil leading to loss of faith. It's really about the church's loss of dictatorial power.
 

mazHur

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Indeed.
I'm surprised you posted that mazHur, given
you've expressed so much denial of it in your own culture.
The problem exists in all cultures, from a little to a massive influence.
To be free and value freedom is the only medicine to combat extremist fundamentalism.

And this also extends to the subject of creationism versus science.
In fundamentalist Islam as in fundamentalist Christianity, the concept of science is seen as an enemy of authority and denounced as an evil leading to loss of faith. It's really about the church's loss of dictatorial power.


I am glad you liked the piece. Yes, there are fundamentalists everywhere and they bring a bad name to religion. This is exactly what I was throughout trying to explain honestly but .....
Anyway, here is another interesting piece for you
Crazy Stone makes a mark!
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/patrick_house/search?contributorName=Patrick House
 

Stone

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I am glad you liked the piece. Yes, there are fundamentalists everywhere and they bring a bad name to religion. This is exactly what I was throughout trying to explain honestly but .....
Anyway, here is another interesting piece for you
Crazy Stone makes a mark!
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/patrick_house/search?contributorName=Patrick House

Slight interest. AI is only what is programmed into a machine.
Program in the parameters of a problem and that's it's only playing field.
Expand the parameters, just a larger playing field.
'thinking outside the box' is a human trait I suspect machines will never learn.
 

mazHur

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Maz how many taliban in PK are using the rules they choose


I have no idea...never seen any. All I know is what you hear from the media. The only diff is that I also come to know about them from their 'actions' every now and then.
On top of this there are conspiracy theories circulating most of the time...it's also said that non-state elements (mainly India ) are causing havoc in Pakistan ...nothing is clear.
Mind it the Taliban are originally Afghans ...a big number of them has taken refuge in Pak after the drone bombings...As Taliban resemble the Pashtuns and are also said to be related to them it becomes easier for them to slip out and intermix with them....
They speak language other than spoken by the main population; have their own customs and culture and they would not intermix with others...
Areas bordering Afg-Pak are their mainstay....when they get hit by NATO they sneak in to adjoining border areas in Pak and when Pak screws them they run back into Afg or hide in Pashtun areas up north.....and some splinter groups also get scattered into a few other cities.... NATO and Pak know it well and Pak is doing is best to get them...but as I said Taliban have nothing to lose except their lives....
but in doing that innocent civilians also suffer the brunt due to NATO or Pak military action...

It appears our region of the world has become a punching bag for the international politico's and there is something more to the on-going war than simply 'war on terror'!
 

mazHur

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I pity the sexual abuse the woman and children have to endure in these areas.

Its rather sad...that people migrate to another nation then demand to have no law enforced by the host.

What other laws could they be unhappy with other than rights and protections of women and children enforced by civilized societies.


Sharia is most strict in matters relating to women and children,,,,
This is why there is nil crime in places where Sharia in one form or the other is enforced....
Try high handedness with a woman or a child in Saudia or UAE and they will crush your balls to dust!!

This clearly evidences Sharia works better than civil laws ......and ensure total safety to women and children,
I note that during the brief stint of Taliban rule in Afg crime rate had greatly dropped to almost zero level...and I don't find any news about civil crimes attributed to Taliban ,,,those whipped are punishments to 'spies' and 'traitors' , they say.
 

mazHur

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Indeed.
I'm surprised you posted that mazHur, given
you've expressed so much denial of it in your own culture.
The problem exists in all cultures, from a little to a massive influence.
To be free and value freedom is the only medicine to combat extremist fundamentalism.

And this also extends to the subject of creationism versus science.
In fundamentalist Islam as in fundamentalist Christianity, the concept of science is seen as an enemy of authority and denounced as an evil leading to loss of faith. It's really about the church's loss of dictatorial power.


Nope, I don't think any Muslim scientist was ever chastised for studying science,,,no.
With Christianity the matter is different because Christianity believed in magic and witches ....we generally don't ,,,,,only superstitious Muslims do,.and such people are found in every religion,,

I don't think there is any harm in studying evolution for the sake of knowledge but comparisons must not been drawn with religious edicts unless scientific results get full and final..
There is still criticism on evolution ,,,,,which proves it is not the final word yet.

Religion is NOT science ,,,it 's simply a belief based on 'trust'...just like you trust your parent's love...or feel pain for the afflicted. Were it for science you would have neither felt love nor pain and lived like a robot! (which you seem to be!!))
 

Stone

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Sharia is most strict in matters relating to women and children,,,,
This is why there is nil crime in places where Sharia in one form or the other is enforced....
Try high handedness with a woman or a child in Saudia or UAE and they will crush your balls to dust!!

This clearly evidences Sharia works better than civil laws ......and ensure total safety to women and children,
I note that during the brief stint of Taliban rule in Afg crime rate had greatly dropped to almost zero level...and I don't find any news about civil crimes attributed to Taliban ,,,those whipped are punishments to 'spies' and 'traitors' , they say.


This clearly evidences Sharia works better than civil laws
It's merely the enforcement mechanism behind Islamic dictatorships.
You call out for democracy and then denounce it's humanity.
You are merely a Taliban sympathizer putting a favorable spin on draconian dictatorships..


I note that during the brief stint of Taliban rule in Afg crime rate had greatly dropped to almost zero level...and I don't find any news about civil crimes attributed to Taliban
Sophistry.
That's only because many crimes became legalized and abused by the Taliban itself.


,those whipped are punishments to 'spies' and 'traitors' , they say
They say and you posted, Mr Taliban sympathizer.
 

Stone

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Nope, I don't think any Muslim scientist was ever chastised for studying science,,,no.
With Christianity the matter is different because Christianity believed in magic and witches ....we generally don't ,,,,,only superstitious Muslims do,.and such people are found in every religion,,

I don't think there is any harm in studying evolution for the sake of knowledge but comparisons must not been drawn with religious edicts unless scientific results get full and final..
There is still criticism on evolution ,,,,,which proves it is not the final word yet.

Religion is NOT science ,,,it 's simply a belief based on 'trust'...just like you trust your parent's love...or feel pain for the afflicted. Were it for science you would have neither felt love nor pain and lived like a robot! (which you seem to be!!))


Nope, I don't think any Muslim scientist was ever chastised for studying science,,,no.
How would you know? You express few scientific concepts correctly concerning evolution, you are quite ignorant on the topics. You have no understanding of the differences between the concepts of evolution, abiogenesis, and the Big Bang event.

With Christianity the matter is different because Christianity believed in magic and witches ....we generally don't
Did your Taliban handler suggest getting into theological arguments at this time as a diversion?


I don't think there is any harm in studying evolution for the sake of knowledge but comparisons must not been drawn with religious edicts unless scientific results get full and final..
Sophistry again......religion and science are not comparable concepts.
The issue is one of harm, it's an issue of imposing religious views through 'creation science' which is not science to begin with. And you did argue against the sciences involved in evolution, abiogenesis and Big Bang.

Religion is NOT science ,,,it 's simply a belief based on 'trust'...just like you trust your parent's love.
Your Taliban handler might not like the construction of that comment ;).....:D


Were it for science you would have neither felt love nor pain and lived like a robot!
Maybe that appeased your handler enough, maybe not.
Science has nothing to do with instructing us on morality and ethics let alone emotions.
 
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mazHur

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No one believes you because you contradict your claims so frequently, mazHur Butt.


You have a weak brain,,,you simply fail to understand. Not your problem but your mind's and mindset's....
Go clean your dingleberries....your gal friend, if any, (I don't believe you could ever have one!!) will mind them...
 
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