Re: Debate Tournament Round 1--- CAM vs RETRO

[USF Sam]

This is the third of four debates in the opening round of the tournament.

Please... ONLY Cam and Retro post in this thread until the results of this debate have been decided.

TOURNAMENT RULES
​

1. Cam will post first, stating her position and the reasons for it.
2. Retro will then respond, stating his position and attacking Cam's.
3. Each player will have a total of three posts, exchanging turns, with the maximum word count of 250 per post.
4. Quoting the other player's post in your rebuttal does not count against this 250.
5. Posts WILL NOT BE EDITED! If a post is edited, the player is immediately disqualified.
6. After both sides have gone 3 times OR if there is no rebuttal after 24 hours the debate will be closed.
7. After it is closed, all posters are encouraged to vote by PM'ing me their vote AND the reason for their vote.
8. After 72 hours of voting I will post the votes and the comments in the debate thread. The winner moves on to the next round.

For the first round we are keeping it light and the questions will be in the area of Popular Culture.

Trust me... for the next rounds the questions will get a LOT "deeper" in nature.


Cam and Retro- The question for your consideration is:

What movie that has been released in the last five years will we look back on in 2031 as a classic in its respective genre along the lines of a "God Father", "Star Wars" and "Animal House"?




Cam, you may lead off.

 

[cam elle toe]

This is VERY subjective, so Im going to attempt to use logic rather than personal opinion.

Avatar. Not just for the message it delivers, but for being one of the first 3D 'adults' movies.

Having James Cameron directing also doesnt hurt, as 2 of his could already be classed as "classics" Titanic and The Terminator.

 

[retro]

Truth be told, Avatar was the first movie that came to mind when I read the topic, but after thinking about it, and seeing Cam's response, I had a few other movies come to mind, among them: The Social Network and Inception. But while those movies were good in their own right, none matched what I finally settled on. The Dark Knight.

While Avatar was fueled by its computer driven effects first and foremost, The Dark Knight was driven by characters and emotional connections with them. Heath Ledger's haunting performance as the Joker, in the last role of his career before tragically dying, was nothing short of perfection, and completely deserving of the Academy Award he received posthumously. Lost in the shadow that Ledger's portrayal of the Joker cast was Aaron Eckhart's transformation from "white knight" District Attorney Harvey Dent into the villain Two-Face. The Joker's murder of his girlfriend, Rachel Dawes, left Dent horrifically scarred, both physically and emotionally.

The Dark Knight was not only one of the highest grossing and critically acclaimed films of the past five years. But Eckhart and Ledger's respective performances even overshadowed the Dark Knight himself, Batman. This says a lot about their characters, because Christian Bale's portrayal of Batman in this film is second to none.

Where Avatar had special effects, The Dark Knight had compelling characters with depth and meaning. That is why it will stand alone in 2031.

 

[USF Sam]

Cam, you are up.

 

[cam elle toe]

Whilst I agree that The Dark Knight was an excellent movie, there will be others released in the "Batman" franchise so I think it will only be remebered as the best of the Batman series, not as a "stand alone/classic" movie as such. It will be remembered as Heaths last and best role for sure, but the movie itself wont be classed as a "stand alone " classic.

A "Batman" classic, yes.

 

[retro]

While that is true, I think The Dark Knight stands by itself in as an iconic film. I personally think of it as a great film first, and a Batman film second.

James Cameron plans on releasing two additional Avatar movies, the first of which is tentatively slated to be released in 2014, and the second in 2015. So by the time that 2031 rolls around, we'll be looking at Avatar as the first movie of a trilogy.

Additionally, I think you have to look at The Dark Knight in the terms of its scope within the Batman universe as well. There have been many other Batman movies over the years, but this is the second in a specific trilogy of Batman movies. You have to set them apart from the other Batman franchises, as it is a reboot of the franchise and doesn't rely on the other movies in the Batman "world" for anything but source material.

If we consider Avatar and The Dark Knight to simply be singular entries in their respective trilogies. This Batman trilogy will end in 2012 with The Dark Knight Rises, and Avatar will end with it's final entry in 2015. As such, we're left with a fairly level playing field between the two. If there weren't going to be any additional entries to the Avatar franchise, I think you would have a very valid point. But since that is not the case, we're left to simply compare the two films head to head.

 

[cam elle toe]

All true, but Avatar was the first in the series so a "groundbreaker". Not only for the storyline, but the effects.

The Dark Knight is the middle of a trilogy in a series, so will eventually be "swallowed up" in the whole franchise. Think Star Wars. Even though the first movie was actually the first in the last part of the Trilogy...everyone remembers it the most because it was the first released and introduced all the characters.
All The Dark Knight really has/had going for it was Heath.

 

[USF Sam]

Retro, you may post your final rebuttal.

After Retro makes his final post this debate will be closed.

 

[retro]

I believe the argument that The Dark Knight will be “swallowed up” by the first and third films is meritless. You mentioned how Star Wars Episode IV overshadowed Episode V, which isn’t actually the case, and here is why. The Empire Strikes Back is considered to be the best film of the franchise, and can be watched without having seen Episode IV. Similarly, you don’t need to have seen Batman Begins to be able to enjoy the Dark Knight.

I strongly disagree with the argument that all The Dark Knight had going for it was Ledger. You have to consider the depth of the characters. Especially the emotional turmoil that Eckhart’s Dent/Two-Face endured; transforming him from “white knight” to villain with a perverted sense of justice twisted by vengeance.

Lost under Eckhart’s and Ledger’s performances was Christian Bale’s Batman/Bruce Wayne. He was caught between trying to do what was needed for Gotham and his own desire for a relationship with Rachel Dawes. He eventually turned himself into the villain, because that’s what the public needed.

Finally, while Avatar’s effects were groundbreaking, its story was not. Replace Jake Sully with John Smith, Pandora with North America, and Neytiri with Pocahontas, and you have history that Disney made into a cartoon years ago. There are other films and stories that Avatar liberally borrows from as well, such as Ferngully.

The Dark Knight has Avatar soundly beaten in every area except for special effects, which in my view makes it the superior film.

 

[USF Sam]

This is VERY subjective, so Im going to attempt to use logic rather than personal opinion.

Avatar. Not just for the message it delivers, but for being one of the first 3D 'adults' movies.

Having James Cameron directing also doesnt hurt, as 2 of his could already be classed as "classics" Titanic and The Terminator.

Truth be told, Avatar was the first movie that came to mind when I read the topic, but after thinking about it, and seeing Cam's response, I had a few other movies come to mind, among them: The Social Network and Inception. But while those movies were good in their own right, none matched what I finally settled on. The Dark Knight.

While Avatar was fueled by its computer driven effects first and foremost, The Dark Knight was driven by characters and emotional connections with them. Heath Ledger's haunting performance as the Joker, in the last role of his career before tragically dying, was nothing short of perfection, and completely deserving of the Academy Award he received posthumously. Lost in the shadow that Ledger's portrayal of the Joker cast was Aaron Eckhart's transformation from "white knight" District Attorney Harvey Dent into the villain Two-Face. The Joker's murder of his girlfriend, Rachel Dawes, left Dent horrifically scarred, both physically and emotionally.

The Dark Knight was not only one of the highest grossing and critically acclaimed films of the past five years. But Eckhart and Ledger's respective performances even overshadowed the Dark Knight himself, Batman. This says a lot about their characters, because Christian Bale's portrayal of Batman in this film is second to none.

Where Avatar had special effects, The Dark Knight had compelling characters with depth and meaning. That is why it will stand alone in 2031.

Whilst I agree that The Dark Knight was an excellent movie, there will be others released in the "Batman" franchise so I think it will only be remebered as the best of the Batman series, not as a "stand alone/classic" movie as such. It will be remembered as Heaths last and best role for sure, but the movie itself wont be classed as a "stand alone " classic.

A "Batman" classic, yes.

While that is true, I think The Dark Knight stands by itself in as an iconic film. I personally think of it as a great film first, and a Batman film second.

James Cameron plans on releasing two additional Avatar movies, the first of which is tentatively slated to be released in 2014, and the second in 2015. So by the time that 2031 rolls around, we'll be looking at Avatar as the first movie of a trilogy.

Additionally, I think you have to look at The Dark Knight in the terms of its scope within the Batman universe as well. There have been many other Batman movies over the years, but this is the second in a specific trilogy of Batman movies. You have to set them apart from the other Batman franchises, as it is a reboot of the franchise and doesn't rely on the other movies in the Batman "world" for anything but source material.

If we consider Avatar and The Dark Knight to simply be singular entries in their respective trilogies. This Batman trilogy will end in 2012 with The Dark Knight Rises, and Avatar will end with it's final entry in 2015. As such, we're left with a fairly level playing field between the two. If there weren't going to be any additional entries to the Avatar franchise, I think you would have a very valid point. But since that is not the case, we're left to simply compare the two films head to head.

All true, but Avatar was the first in the series so a "groundbreaker". Not only for the storyline, but the effects.

The Dark Knight is the middle of a trilogy in a series, so will eventually be "swallowed up" in the whole franchise. Think Star Wars. Even though the first movie was actually the first in the last part of the Trilogy...everyone remembers it the most because it was the first released and introduced all the characters.
All The Dark Knight really has/had going for it was Heath.

I believe the argument that The Dark Knight will be “swallowed up” by the first and third films is meritless. You mentioned how Star Wars Episode IV overshadowed Episode V, which isn’t actually the case, and here is why. The Empire Strikes Back is considered to be the best film of the franchise, and can be watched without having seen Episode IV. Similarly, you don’t need to have seen Batman Begins to be able to enjoy the Dark Knight.

I strongly disagree with the argument that all The Dark Knight had going for it was Ledger. You have to consider the depth of the characters. Especially the emotional turmoil that Eckhart’s Dent/Two-Face endured; transforming him from “white knight” to villain with a perverted sense of justice twisted by vengeance.

Lost under Eckhart’s and Ledger’s performances was Christian Bale’s Batman/Bruce Wayne. He was caught between trying to do what was needed for Gotham and his own desire for a relationship with Rachel Dawes. He eventually turned himself into the villain, because that’s what the public needed.

Finally, while Avatar’s effects were groundbreaking, its story was not. Replace Jake Sully with John Smith, Pandora with North America, and Neytiri with Pocahontas, and you have history that Disney made into a cartoon years ago. There are other films and stories that Avatar liberally borrows from as well, such as Ferngully.

The Dark Knight has Avatar soundly beaten in every area except for special effects, which in my view makes it the superior film.

THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED.

Please place your votes by PMing me your choice for the winner WITH YOUR REASONS.


Thank you to both participants for an excellent exchange.