Mandatory Guns - good column

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A modest proposal
By Al Horne
Tuesday, November 17, 2009

With Congress tied up over health reform -- legislation whose initial, much-discussed goal was to extend health insurance to as many as 47 million uninsured Americans -- this may be as good a time as any to propose another, less divisive reform.

The FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimated in 2008 that more than 250 million guns were owned by U.S. citizens. Since President Obama's election last November, newspapers and electronic media have reported a sharp increase in U.S. gun sales, spurred by rumors that the new administration had secret plans to block gun sales to law-abiding Americans. Normally, about 4.5 million guns are sold in the United States each year, so this surge in sales means that Americans own roughly 260 million guns, in a population of nearly 309 million.

Surveys indicate that gun ownership is not spread evenly across U.S. households. In fact, chances are that a substantial proportion of U.S. gun owners have more than one weapon, so it's quite possible that fewer than 200 million Americans own those 260 million guns. That means there may be more than 100 million citizens left unprotected against their gun-owning fellow citizens.

Surely everyone can agree that this is an outrage. Moreover, it is an outrage that Congress can easily fix, without months of committee meetings, town halls or tea parties. All that is required is a bipartisan, pro-constitutional bill to extend the Second Amendment's protection of gun ownership to all Americans, whether they like it or not.

Under such legislation -- let's call it the Gun Insurance Act of 2009 -- every American would be required to buy some kind of gun. Those who cannot afford even the simplest weapon -- say, those whose 2009 annual income is less than twice the federal poverty level -- could be issued $500 vouchers that would be valid only at gun shops or gun shows, and would have to be used before the 2010 Census. (Just think: What a stimulus to private enterprise all these gun sales would provide, and how many new gun-selling jobs would be created!)

How would the law be enforced? Census takers could verify that everyone they count has a weapon in working condition, and those census takers who survive could report all non-complying Americans to the FBI so it could notify local police departments, which would issue citations for whatever fines Congress chooses to impose. (Note that this proposed legislation would not require creating any new bureaucracy, public option or death panels.) Of course, illegal immigrants would not receive vouchers, would not be required to buy guns and would not be counted in the Census.

So there it is: a modest proposal even Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley can agree on. If we're willing to require people to buy health insurance, why not require them to buy guns? Sure, maybe the Congressional Budget Office could overestimate its cost, and some wimpy liberals could file a court challenge, but the Supreme Court would slap it down on a clear 5-to-4 vote. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, here's one issue where you can count on at least a couple of Republican votes.
 
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MoonOwl

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Hostages were taken in a Target last night. I was thinking it was too bad someone didn't have a gun in their purse. Could have put a quick end to that.......

An armed society is a polite society....
 

dt3

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"One cannot legislate the maniacs off the street... these maniacs can only be shut down by an armed citizenry. Indeed bad things can happen in nations where the citizenry is armed, but not as bad as those which seem to be threatening our disarmed citizenry in this country at this time. "

"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

-Jeff Cooper
 

Tim

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I own guns and I wouldn't want it any other way...

Do I believe that Americans should be able to own and posses firearms? Yes, with limitations.
The problem is that we have a large number of complete idiots in this country and more than likely their children will pay for that fact with their lives when they play with daddy's gun.

Owning a gun is not a right, it's a privilege. For if it was a right, convicted felons would be allowed to own a gun.
I think owning a gun should be like driving a car. When you turn of age you can take a test to demonstrate that you understand how to properly handle your weapon and if you pass, you get your license for life. But if you commit a felony your license will be permanently revoked. I would even fully support gun safety classes being taught in after school programs, hell, even during the day. And I would tighten up the laws about properly storing your gun. If your child gets ahold of your loaded gun because you are a moron and shoots himself, then you need to go to jail, period.
 

nova

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Not that it was the point of the article but...

Owning a gun is not a right, it's a privilege. For if it was a right, convicted felons would be allowed to own a gun.

No its a right. See DC v Heller. Its simply one we've decided can be permanently infringed as a consequence of criminal activity AFTER due process has been executed.

I don't happen to agree with that. If you are a free man then you should be a free man in all aspects. If that felon is so dangerous they can't be trusted with a firearm, then they need to be kept in prison and not be roaming the streets.

Not to mention all the absolutely innocuous things that make one a felon, either by virtue of holdover of old laws or simple legislative stupidity. I think we can all agree violent offenders probably don't need to but how about the following.

Here in AL (and I think TX) selling a dildo as a dildo is a felony. Do you honestly think that purveyors of dildos are a danger to society if armed?

TN recently upped their cigarrette tax and change the law such that if you live in TN and carry more than a pack or two into the state, you're guilty of a felony? Are those people dangerous when armed?

Most states, speeding more than 20mph over the limit is a felony. Are those people dangerous when armed?

Lets go bigger. How about white collar criminals? Guys that embezzled piles of money. Are they dangerous when armed?

The ultimate solution is to reform the justice system such that violent offenders stay locked up, basically permanently and recognize the lesser offenses as such....

I think owning a gun should be like driving a car. When you turn of age you can take a test to demonstrate that you understand how to properly handle your weapon and if you pass, you get your license for life.

Uh no. My rights are not subject to some gov't flunky determining whether I'm capable of excercising them or not. Thats regressing back to the land of poll taxes and literacy tests to vote. It doesn't take much to make sure no one passes period.

If you can find a legal avenue to test people to excercise their 2nd amendment rights, then I'm pretty sure I can find one to institute a literacy test to vote, since ignorant voting is much more dangerous and detrimental to society than someone owning a firearm.
 

Tim

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My statement about owning a gun being a priveledge and not a right is my own view on it, not the legal standing of the day.

Here are a couple of statements about "District of Columbia v. Heller"

The Court applies as remedy that "assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of Second Amendment rights, the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home."

A license to carry it in the home? Hmmm, exactly what I was talking about. Except that I would like to see some sort of training to properly handle the weapon.

And even though this court considers it a right, it still is not without limitations.

However, "like most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." The Court's opinion, although refraining from an exhaustive analysis of the full scope of the right, "should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

And that's my point. Allow people to own firearms, but they must be required to fulfill certain requirements like basic gun safety classes.
My idiot neighbors right to own a gun should not put my life in danger because he doesn't have the basic understanding of proper gun handling and shoots through the side of my house.

I don't support gun ownership for all, no questions asked. I believe in responsible gun ownership.
Guns don't scare me, it's the idiots out there who do.
 

nova

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And you didn't answer any of my questions.

A license to carry it in the home? Hmmm, exactly what I was talking about. Except that I would like to see some sort of training to properly handle the weapon.

And even though this court considers it a right, it still is not without limitations.

The only reason Heller says that is the legal question about licensing and registration was not before the court. The question before the court was a de-facto ban based on a law prohibiting the issuance of licenses. Depending on how several pending cases shake out, licensing and registration may fall next.

And that's my point. Allow people to own firearms, but they must be required to fulfill certain requirements like basic gun safety classes.
My idiot neighbors right to own a gun should not put my life in danger because he doesn't have the basic understanding of proper gun handling and shoots through the side of my house.

And who gets to decide what a "basic gun safety class" is? Who decides what pass and fail is? By you're standard, I'd never own a gun, but I'm probably the most anal retentive person about gun safety you're ever likely to meet.

It boils down to som gov't flunky making arbitrary decisions about standards, that once they're in place can be changed so that no-one can pass.

Its no different and no more acceptable than a literacy test to vote.


I don't support gun ownership for all, no questions asked. I believe in responsible gun ownership.
Guns don't scare me, it's the idiots out there who do.

So you treat everyone like idiots? Guilty until proven innocent? If thats the case, then prove to me you're competent before you can vote. Ignorant voters are more a danger to society than any firearm could ever be.
 

Tim

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And you didn't answer any of my questions.

Actually I did answer your questions, then got distracted while typing up my response and changed it all... But my answer was, No, I don't think that some guy selling a dildo should be barred from owning a handgun because it was deemed a felony. On the same note, should he also barred from voting?
I believe that people who have committed violent crimes should be barred from owning a gun.

And who gets to decide what a "basic gun safety class" is? Who decides what pass and fail is? By you're standard, I'd never own a gun, but I'm probably the most anal retentive person about gun safety you're ever likely to meet.

Who decides? I'm not sure of the question. There are gun safety classes out there right now. My son had to go through safety classes to get his hunting license before the age of 16. The classes were not state/government run but were recognized by the state since they met the requirements. I was actually quite impressed with the training that he received. And at the end of the week long course (couple of hours each night) he had to pass a written test and show the instructor how to properly handle various weapons he was presented with.

It boils down to som gov't flunky making arbitrary decisions about standards, that once they're in place can be changed so that no-one can pass.

The courses that are available right now aren't run by the state/government, why would they need to be if the laws were changed?

Did you have the same resentment for government when you learned that you just couldn't get behind the wheel of a car without first demonstrating that you understood the rules of the road? That you actually needed to study and pass a test showing you were safe enough to drive? By your logic, everyone should be able to drive whether they passed a drivers test or not. What right does the government have to restrict who drives and who doesn't?

Its no different and no more acceptable than a literacy test to vote.

Your vote can't kill me from 100 yards away.

So you treat everyone like idiots? Guilty until proven innocent? If thats the case, then prove to me you're competent before you can vote. Ignorant voters are more a danger to society than any firearm could ever be.

I treat everyone like idiots? Please go read what I wrote again, and understand that reading comprehension is your friend.
It only takes that one idiot with a gun out of a thousand people to ruin my day.
 

nova

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Actually I did answer your questions, then got distracted while typing up my response and changed it all... But my answer was, No, I don't think that some guy selling a dildo should be barred from owning a handgun because it was deemed a felony. On the same note, should he also barred from voting?

Obviously no. You're either a free man or you aren't. Lifelong punishment is a bunch of crap, especially for BS offenses.

I believe that people who have committed violent crimes should be barred from owning a gun.

Then they need to be kept in prison, because just saying "Its illegal for you to have that" isn't going to stop them the second time around any more than it did the first time around. If they're too dangerous to posess a weapon, then they're too dangerous to walk the streets period.


Who decides? I'm not sure of the question. There are gun safety classes out there right now. My son had to go through safety classes to get his hunting license before the age of 16. The classes were not state/government run but were recognized by the state since they met the requirements. I was actually quite impressed with the training that he received. And at the end of the week long course (couple of hours each night) he had to pass a written test and show the instructor how to properly handle various weapons he was presented with.

The difference is, thats a class for something that really is a privelege (unless you happen to live in one of the states where it is an enumerated right under the state constitution). Its not a class for the mere owning and posession of firearms.

The courses that are available right now aren't run by the state/government, why would they need to be if the laws were changed?

Doesn't matter who runs them, the state sets the standards which can easily have the same outcome.

Its not some academic argument either, every single place, from other nations to states right here in the US, that have instituted licensing schemes, the end result has been virtual and some times actual bans. They simply make it harder and harder to get a license such that fewer people do it so there's less political opposition to the next round of restrictions. It happened in the UK, its happening right now in Ireland and thats pretty much what has happened in places like NJ and Mass.

Did you have the same resentment for government when you learned that you just couldn't get behind the wheel of a car without first demonstrating that you understood the rules of the road? That you actually needed to study and pass a test showing you were safe enough to drive? By your logic, everyone should be able to drive whether they passed a drivers test or not. What right does the government have to restrict who drives and who doesn't?

If we added Amendment 28 that said "The right of the people to keep and operate automobiles, shall not be infringed" I most certainly would make that argument, but until that point its not relevent to the conversation.

You do not have a right to drive a car on public highways, but you do in essence have a right to operate one on private property, regardless of age, ability or licensing. If I have a track in my backyard, I can put an 8 year old behind the wheel and let him run wild and nobody can say a word. Hell, here in Huntsville we have a track that regularly runs Jr. races where 12-15 year olds race full size cars.

Thats currently the way firearms are typically regulated. I have my CCW so that I can carry my weapon on my person in public, but am not required to have that if I'm on my own property.

Your vote can't kill me from 100 yards away.

It can, it can kill you from 100 or even 1000 miles away if you can scrape together enough votes for a particularly stupid proposal. :p

Even then, you're talking about something that virtually never happens. In all of 2006, out of 350 million Americans, 80 million gunowners and who knows how many guns, there were 642 accidental firearms deaths.

During that same time period there were 45,000+ deaths in traffic accidents, despite people "having to prove they're safe and know what they're doing." Doesn't appear to work too well now does it?

I treat everyone like idiots? Please go read what I wrote again, and understand that reading comprehension is your friend.
It only takes that one idiot with a gun out of a thousand people to ruin my day.

It was a rhetorical question. I read exactly what you said and understand it completely. For the purposes of excercising a Constitutional right, you start with the assumption that people are incompetent. You can't do that. Its just not right.
 
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Pabst

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It would be funny if it wasn't true or wasn't enforced but it is true and is enforced... :yuk

no its funny because it reminds me of the bullshit laws they pass while they distract us with other bullshit. just because they got voted in doesnt mean they know how to do their fucking job.
 
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