Health care problems

[Alien Allen]

not sure if the same idiots that run the govt are the ones to manage a health care program though.

Other than that you got any ideas?

You do realize that insurance is what created this monster. I could be wrong but think that the Big 3 were the first to get coverage. Don't know if that included families. I never supported a business having to insure a family. I know you will disagree Tim but where does it stop? Anyway if everybody had the old style catastrophic care which was traditional Blue Cross your basic health care would not be near as expensive. No doctor could charge over $100 for a 2 minute office visit.

What has really afftected the cost of health care is the medicine side. Too many designer drugs where the old ones worked fine for the last 50 years. And at some point as a nation we need to discuss how much is too much when it comes to cancer care. Is it reasonable to have chemo that is $15k a pop with it going once a week for months if not longer. Nobody wants to die but at some point this needs to be determined. My father had pancreatic cancer at the age of 85 and refused chemo. He knew at his age it was pointless to drag out a miserable existence for a few extra weeks or months. These are tough decisions but at some point the system is going to break and no amount of govt intervention is going to reduce such costs to reasonable levels.

 

[Peter Parka]

Re: health insurance

not sure if the same idiots that run the govt are the ones to manage a health care program though.

Better than businesses whose only motive is to make money. The NHS over here might not be ideal but its better than none if you cant afford it.

 

[Alien Allen]

Re: health insurance

Better than businesses whose only motive is to make money. The NHS over here might not be ideal but its better than none if you cant afford it.

The big lie though is that people do get care if they have no money. Hospitals have to take in patients. I have cousin whose wife works at a hospital.

I am not against doing something. But I do not want to see it handed over to the govt to micro manage. They will screw it up.

 

[Tim]

I'll split Clare's thread and put the debate in here since it's a really good topic for discussion.

 

[Tim]

not sure if the same idiots that run the govt are the ones to manage a health care program though.

Other than that you got any ideas?

You do realize that insurance is what created this monster. I could be wrong but think that the Big 3 were the first to get coverage. Don't know if that included families. I never supported a business having to insure a family. I know you will disagree Tim but where does it stop? Anyway if everybody had the old style catastrophic care which was traditional Blue Cross your basic health care would not be near as expensive. No doctor could charge over $100 for a 2 minute office visit.

What has really afftected the cost of health care is the medicine side. Too many designer drugs where the old ones worked fine for the last 50 years. And at some point as a nation we need to discuss how much is too much when it comes to cancer care. Is it reasonable to have chemo that is $15k a pop with it going once a week for months if not longer. Nobody wants to die but at some point this needs to be determined. My father had pancreatic cancer at the age of 85 and refused chemo. He knew at his age it was pointless to drag out a miserable existence for a few extra weeks or months. These are tough decisions but at some point the system is going to break and no amount of govt intervention is going to reduce such costs to reasonable levels.

I don't agree with denying care based on cost. If chemo costs $25k per shot it is still worth saving a life. I will put life over costs any day. Now I also believe that the final decision should always rest with the family, like in the case of your grandfather, but I would want your family to have that choice.

I think health care went wrong the second we allowed people to make money off sick people. I think that all essential health care should be 100% non profit, no exceptions. I think it is morally wrong when a company can drop you as a customer the second they find out you will cost them money. Health care is too important for that.

 

[Alien Allen]

I don't agree with denying care based on cost. If chemo costs $25k per shot it is still worth saving a life. I will put life over costs any day. Now I also believe that the final decision should always rest with the family, like in the case of your grandfather, but I would want your family to have that choice.

I think health care went wrong the second we allowed people to make money off sick people. I think that all essential health care should be 100% non profit, no exceptions. I think it is morally wrong when a company can drop you as a customer the second they find out you will cost them money. Health care is too important for that.

I am not aware of people being forced to drop when they become sick.

A lot of hospitals are non profit and I don't see their charges being noticeably less. What you really mean is you want the doctors to earn less I think. Well I guess that can happen. Then those people will disappear and find some other job that pays as well. Or you want to make lawyers non profit also :24:

 

[Tim]

I never supported a business having to insure a family. I know you will disagree Tim but where does it stop? Anyway if everybody had the old style catastrophic care which was traditional Blue Cross your basic health care would not be near as expensive. No doctor could charge over $100 for a 2 minute office visit.

I'm not sure if I understand here. Do they require businesses to cover families where you are? I know that providing health care, any health care is up to the business here. They can offer no health care, just for the employee or for the whole family. It's completely up to the place of business. My company offers full coverage for me and my family without any contributions from me. That's full coverage as in $10 office visits, $3 prescriptions, dental, vision, etc. But that's one of the reasons I work here. If they didn't offer that, there are other companies in the area that I could have worked for.

 

[Tim]

I am not aware of people being forced to drop when they become sick.

A lot of hospitals are non profit and I don't see their charges being noticeably less. What you really mean is you want the doctors to earn less I think. Well I guess that can happen. Then those people will disappear and find some other job that pays as well. Or you want to make lawyers non profit also :24:

I would absolutely not want to decrease what doctors get paid, or anyone else providing the care. I'm talking about the massive profits by drug companies and insurance carriers.
You can make a very good living working for a non profit company, there is no need to reduce your pay.

And insurance companies look for any and every reason not to pay. Do not be fooled for a second to think they are there to help you, they are there to make a profit. So if that means as a matter of policy they deny a certain percentage of claims knowing that some of them will not be challenged, they will do it feeding their bottom line.
Profit and care do not go hand in hand.

 

[Alien Allen]

I'm not sure if I understand here. Do they require businesses to cover families where you are? I know that providing health care, any health care is up to the business here. They can offer no health care, just for the employee or for the whole family. It's completely up to the place of business. My company offers full coverage for me and my family without any contributions from me. That's full coverage as in $10 office visits, $3 prescriptions, dental, vision, etc. But that's one of the reasons I work here. If they didn't offer that, there are other companies in the area that I could have worked for.

You have gold plated health care it sounds like that would cost probably about $1800 a month I would guess as I am assuming there are no deductibles and copays and it is a PPO?

No a business can cover whoever they want here. My point was why is it a businesses responsibility to cover anybody let alone an employees family and why should it be gold plated?? Good for you that you have that. But it is unrealistic to expect that for everybody unless there are other sacrifices.

I would absolutely not want to decrease what doctors get paid, or anyone else providing the care. I'm talking about the massive profits by drug companies and insurance carriers.
You can make a very good living working for a non profit company, there is no need to reduce your pay.

And insurance companies look for any and every reason not to pay. Do not be fooled for a second to think they are there to help you, they are there to make a profit. So if that means as a matter of policy they deny a certain percentage of claims knowing that some of them will not be challenged, they will do it feeding their bottom line.
Profit and care do not go hand in hand.

Health care is a business. That was my point of saying that the start of it is what drove up costs. I was never fooled about what to expect. It is no difference than any other type of insurance. You get what you paid for. In the case of the vast majority they were getting something they never paid a dime for as the employers paid for it until the costs got out of hand. As I said for years the standard was the typical Blue Cross traditional coverage. This goes back to the 70's where one basically was covered for tests and hospitalization. None of the unlimited office visit and low medicine costs which the system morphed into as the norm.

No amount of intervention will ever get costs under control. The only thing that will curb costs is for people themselves to demand lesser medicines instead of the more expensive ones. Look at every hospital bill and make sure there are no errors. That will not solve anything but will help. Personal responsibility and more limited coverage will lower costs. That and making Health Savings accounts more easily available where it is not a burden on a small business to manage. Your view appears to be the govt overtaking the industry and expanding it.

 

[thatguyjeff]

I would absolutely not want to decrease what doctors get paid, or anyone else providing the care. I'm talking about the massive profits by drug companies and insurance carriers.
You can make a very good living working for a non profit company, there is no need to reduce your pay.

And insurance companies look for any and every reason not to pay. Do not be fooled for a second to think they are there to help you, they are there to make a profit. So if that means as a matter of policy they deny a certain percentage of claims knowing that some of them will not be challenged, they will do it feeding their bottom line.
Profit and care do not go hand in hand.

Your assumptions about insurance companies are a gross generalization and are simply not true in all cases.

 

[Tim]

Your assumptions about insurance companies are a gross generalization and are simply not true in all cases.

You're right, it's a generalization. But you are sadly mistaken if you think that health companies worry more about your health than their bottom line, and that's why health care should never be for profit.

 

[Alien Allen]

You're right, it's a generalization. But you are sadly mistaken if you think that health companies worry more about your health than their bottom line, and that's why health care should never be for profit.

Not just a generalization but a gross generalization.

You get what you pay for Tim. Our county has a lab that does free testing. The state will do the same test for $12


Funny thing is both the state and county lab have 20% false positives. They will not admit it. On the other hand a private lab I use probably has had less than 3% of the samples test positive.

The county lab and the state lab both violate EPA protocols.

This is what you get when things are free or subsidized. You want everybody covered fine. But do not think things will be better if the govt controls it.

 

[Tim]

There will always be a place for private insurance. I wouldn't want to see it go away. But in the same breath I would call to see nationalized health care.
No matter how it happens or with whatever plan you choose, we should never be faced with the choice of getting needed medical care or not because of cost.

I don't know why we allow this to go on in this country. Would you accept the fact that it would cost you money every time the police come to your home? Would you accept charging people to come put out a fire? Then why is it ok to have to choose between getting medical treatment or being buried in debt?

 

[Alien Allen]

If you get what you want there will be no private health care or it comes with very strict penalties. Once the govt has their fingers in what is a massive industry with huge sums of money they will want complete control.

 

[satinbutterfly]

If you get what you want there will be no private health care or it comes with very strict penalties. Once the govt has their fingers in what is a massive industry with huge sums of money they will want complete control.

:homo:


The current system we have is broken. I'm not really sure how it can be fixed.

My mom works for a doctor's office. They're listed as a non-profit company, though they get bonus checks every quarter for hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's absolutely insane... and yet they say if health care becomes standardized they won't be doctors anymore. It just seems like the doctors are just in it for the money these days, and not for the right reasons. Don't get me wrong, I think they should be paid well, but I think it's gone a little too far.

 

[Peter Parka]

If you get what you want there will be no private health care or it comes with very strict penalties. Once the govt has their fingers in what is a massive industry with huge sums of money they will want complete control.

Funny, in over 50 years of national health care in Britain, that's never happened. Why do you think it will in the US?

 

[thatguyjeff]

You're right, it's a generalization. But you are sadly mistaken if you think that health companies worry more about your health than their bottom line, and that's why health care should never be for profit.

Again, generalization. I speak from experience. There ARE insurance companies out there that DO care. There are insurance companies out there that are non-profit. There are insurance companies out there that pay out pver 90% of the premium payments they take in - the rest is for administrative costs only. There are no shareholders, no one profits from any gains (at certain companies).

I have first-hand experience from working on an appeals board at a major health insurance company. I've seen (and participated in) appeals where claims were denied correctly and the denial was overturned simply because people cared. There have been cases (again, firsthand direct knowledge) where the contract clearly stated a given service was not covered and the denial was overturned. Folks with me on the appeals board were geniuinely interested in the health and welfare of the patient.

 

[Tim]

Again, generalization. I speak from experience. There ARE insurance companies out there that DO care. There are insurance companies out there that are non-profit. There are insurance companies out there that pay out pver 90% of the premium payments they take in - the rest is for administrative costs only. There are no shareholders, no one profits from any gains (at certain companies).

I have first-hand experience from working on an appeals board at a major health insurance company. I've seen (and participated in) appeals where claims were denied correctly and the denial was overturned simply because people cared. There have been cases (again, firsthand direct knowledge) where the contract clearly stated a given service was not covered and the denial was overturned. Folks with me on the appeals board were geniuinely interested in the health and welfare of the patient.

I applaud this company and say that it doesn't represent the majority of insurance companies.

I know there are always exceptions and I was only speaking about the majority of insurance companies.

 

[flipx]

*chants* NHS NHS NHS *chants*

 

[Alien Allen]

I applaud this company and say that it doesn't represent the majority of insurance companies.

I know there are always exceptions and I was only speaking about the majority of insurance companies.

That is bull shit

You got it ass backwards

The vast majority of claims are paid. It is the odd exception that is not.

Quit watching CNN and MSNBC