Faith and Revelation

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BornReady

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Debating God is mostly a huge waste of time but here we are... When it comes to God and spirituality, faith is all there is, but that does not mean it's not there. :)

Minor Axis' comment seems worthy of its own thread to me. lol Well, not the part about wasting time. ;)

Is faith valid? First we need to ask faith in what? In this case, I think what religious people have faith in is revelation. There are two kinds of revelation, personal and scripture. Are either of these a valid source of truth?

It would be a lot easier for me to have faith in revelation if everyones' revelations agreed. But they don't. And some revelations are downright awful. It doesn't seem to me we have a reliable source of divine revelation. This is not to say all revelation is wrong. How could I know that? But at least we should be highly skeptical of revelation.

What do you think?
 
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Tim

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I think it's a very valid question that most won't be able to answer honestly.

I was born into a Christian family and attended church regularly. If it wasn't for the fact that I questioned my faith and religion, I would still be leaning on my "faith" as truth. Religion is all about faith in something that is intangible. If they cannot instill a reason for you to believe, then that religion will not last very long.
So you need to step outside of your beliefs for a moment and use a little logic, critical thinking. You need to ask yourself one very simple question... Why do I believe what I do?
And if you truly ask yourself this question and answer it very honestly, you may be in for a little shock like I was.
I was a Christian because I was raised in a family who was Christian. So how can my truth be any more valid than the truth known by another who was raised differently? What makes me so conceited to believe that I was lucky enough to be born into the right beliefs?
List any of the hundreds of beliefs and religions out there and ask yourself why your belief is any more valid than any other one? Just because of the environment you were born into? How does that make any sense at all?

So is your faith ever your faith or just a product of your environment? And if it is just a product of your environment, then it can not be divine.
 

TommyTooter

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Minor Axis' comment seems worthy of its own thread to me. lol Well, not the part about wasting time. ;)

Is faith valid? First we need to ask faith in what? In this case, I think what religious people have faith in is revelation. There are two kinds of revelation, personal and scripture. Are either of these a valid source of truth?

It would be a lot easier for me to have faith in revelation if everyones' revelations agreed. But they don't. And some revelations are downright awful. It doesn't seem to me we have a reliable source of divine revelation. This is not to say all revelation is wrong. How could I know that? But at least we should be highly skeptical of revelation.

What do you think?
i'm pretty confident that the sun, moon, the earth and stars will keep on going like they are a lot longer than my body will and that i haven't done anything in this lifetime that will require more than minor penance in the hereafter if there is a hereafter. que sera sera, you know?

my relationship with entities that are not of the material plane is something that exists entirely in my own mind and are just as likely to be fantasy as reality.

as far as any revelations of visions had by people in ancient times goes, it ain't over until the dead lady sings.
 

edgray

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I like to refer to Tim's sig for this kind of thing.

Yeah I think Tim's sig sums this up pretty well.

I think faith as we know it is pretty pointless, and has no basis in reality whatsoever. It also goes strongly against human inquisition and is causing lots of problems around the world.

Now that we can explain everything that was once put down to mysticism and religion with science, the only place left for a creator is whatever sparked the big bang. This tells us 2 things:

1) Everything that has been told to us by religions we know to be completely and 100% false and made up.
2) So, with that in mind, our idea of God should start from scratch based on our current knowledge.

I don't want belittle people that do believe. But there has to be lots of room for doubt as no one knows for sure, and if that belief is born out of church or any kind of organised religion it is erroneous for the reason pointed out above.

God, the creator, whatever, belongs purely as philosophical construct and nothing more at this point.
 

BornReady

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I read godless by Dan Barker. It's a good book. I also heard him speak once. He's doing good work to help keep church and state separate.
 

Zorak

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MinorAxis just summed up the works of Kant and Nietzche pretty well: If you can't decipher it, it's not worth discussing. Metaphysics as Aristotle put it.

I agree with that to some point. If there is a force beyond human comprehension, they won't lose any sleep while I don't comprehend them.
 

TommyTooter

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forgive me for going a little old school and using the dictionary. as we can see, there is a much broader definition of faith than that of the faith of christians that the stories they are told in their scripture are true.

as i pointed out earlier, the books of the old testament appear to be a largely historical documentation of a single family of people whose first generation were named adam and eve. geneologies are given throughout the books tracing the development of that family through noah and the time of the deluge, which also appears to have some geologic evidence to support that account. through the patriarchs the family becomes twelve tribes and then a nation with its ups and downs when the last geneology, that of jesus, through joseph is given in the opening of the book of mark.

the presence of that passage has always thrown a flag in my mind about the virgin birth story. some chasidic rabbis once were talking about how jesus was actually born of joseph and that the story had been made up to cover up his getting mary knocked up before they were actually married.

the jews claim that JHVH did make himself quite apparent for a long time up through the time of the prophet and that he would repeatedly keep promises to descendants of adam and eve, both good and bad, through all those years. i really don't know what they say about his apparent silence since the miracles of sinai.

the biggest problem i see between the faith of the scientist and the faith of the theologian is that the scientist has instruments to test his faith with and can make predictions based on reproducible results. the theologian only has ancient texts and the noise inside his own head to go on.


faith

   [/URL]/feɪθ/ dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA
–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god"]god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.

8. Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.


—Idiom 9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.



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Origin:
1200–50; ME feith < AF fed, OF feid, feit < L fidem, acc. of fidēs trust, akin to fīdere to trust. See confide
 
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