Could the West Ever Adopt Sharia Law?

[Minor Axis]

While I hope we (in the U.S.) can resist religious based laws, after reading Michelle Bachmann's Dec 2012 suspect speculation that Obama wants to institute Sharia Law in the U.S., I thought it might be interesting to discuss Sharia Law and ask if it has any merits that are compatible with Western Society? My intent is to separate Sharia Law from the Muslim Faith and not to use this thread as a means of discrediting the Muslim faith, but of examining what exactly Sharia Law dictates and how flexible is it, and how compatible with a modern society?

Honestly when I look at the Middle East, I see the Middle Ages. I'm a proponent of secular law, the separation of government and religious institutions. I'm not an expert on Sharia, but as I understand it on a superficial level, it's existence concerns me on a wide spectrum of social standards that I don't believe are compatible with Western Society.

When it comes to God's rules, how are they extracted from your favorite Holy Book? The only rules I've seen in the Bible are the 10 Commandments. The rest of the Bible standards appear to be based on what is written in an approving or disapproving manner. This defacto becomes God's rules. Does the same situation exist in the Qur'an? Are there standards listed as rules or are the rules inferred?

Regarding the Qur'an, the Sharia Law standard seem alien to me, such as punishments (stoning), lack of jury trials, individual represent themselves in court, different treatment for men, discrimination directed at women on a wide spectrum of issues such as divorce, infidelity, restriction of women's rights, everyone being forbidden to leave the faith, allowing religious leaders to hand down punishments for blasphemy including death by vigilante justice. Ultimately it seems to be an all or nothing system, a my way or the highway tolerance.

From a Western viewpoint, what can be called Sharia's best attributes? Does it have anything we could embrace with open arms? Or has it been and will continue to be the source of suedo religious/terror based wars as long as intolerant followers exist and Western Powers are in the Middle East stirring the pot?

The other consideration is how much of implementation of Sharia Law comes from the Qur'an and how much from Middle Eastern Culture? Where does the Qur'an/Sharia Law stop and culture start?

Wikipedia Sharia Law

My disclaimer: I consider myself a spiritual person who believes there could be a higher power and a spiritual existence after physical death, but in my Agnostic thinking, it is something not understood. If anything, I'd describe as vague goings-on behind the screen. I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but a compilation of documents written and manipulated by man as an attempt to understand our place in the Universe and establish a relationship with the Diety we believe in. I categorize the Qur'an in the same manner.

 

[Alien Allen]

On CNN they just did a segment on vigilante Muslims in London who patrol an area to enforce Sharia. I did not catch it all but it appears they enforce by harassing people to get lost.

you can do a You Tube and find out what they were doing.

I don't know enough about Sharia other than it is based on Islam followings. Since we have a supposed separation of church and state I wonder if some nutbag judges could rule that areas where it is predominantly Muslim here that Sharia could apply?

Those areas in the mideast who are bound by Sharia would love nothing more than to have Sharia apply to the rest of the world. So to answer your question I would say that if we ever had Islam replace Christianity here as the predominant religion it would not be a stretch to follow the bouncing ball where Shari Law would be the law of the land. Not in my lifetime but maybe in 100 years lets say.

Do you think it is out of place for some lawmakers to make attempts to ban Sharia Law here Minor?

 

[Minor Axis]

On CNN they just did a segment on vigilante Muslims in London who patrol an area to enforce Sharia. I did not catch it all but it appears they enforce by harassing people to get lost.

Very troubling. Does this vigilante action stand up in any court over there?

Do you think it is out of place for some lawmakers to make attempts to ban Sharia Law here Minor?

There is no place for Sharia Law in the States as far as I am concerned. However, is banning necessary? We have a rule of law and it is not Sharia. What would it take to institute Sharia in some jurisdiction, a majority of Muslims on some city council? If so, I'd be for a ban.

 

[Greatest I am]

M A

The West does not have the best reputation for equality of the sexes in the world but I cannot see our women ever allowing their men to implement Sharia law. H

Hell I cannot even envision Western men wanting women that much lower than ourselves just due to fashion.

[video=youtube;AIpdC0o3mdM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIpdC0o3mdM[/video]

Regards
DL

 

[Minor Axis]

M A

The West does not have the best reputation for equality of the sexes in the world but I cannot see our women ever allowing their men to implement Sharia law. H

Hell I cannot even envision Western men wanting women that much lower than ourselves just due to fashion.

[video=youtube;AIpdC0o3mdM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIpdC0o3mdM[/video]

Regards
DL

It's all relative. I saw that show. Good to see you back.

 

[Greatest I am]

Thanks friend.

I wanted to see ---again --- if our mutual friend was going to stalk me again.
A real pain in the mail box that one.

I had also noted that many of the religious here had backed off of debate or discussion.

I hear that religious heads are trying hard to get their apologists more active as they are losing their flocks ---- rather nicely FMPOV, but they are not having much success. Two things are working against them. The young are getting to bright and sophisticated to bother with the nonsense of fantasy, miracles and magic, and the non-believing apologists are not letting the believers get away with their foolish apologies and demanding a bit of sense. Churches are closing as we speak, --- if not getting bankrupted by law suits for pedophilia.

Life is sweet FMPOV.

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

.................

I wanted to see ---again --- if our mutual friend was going to stalk me again.
A real pain in the mail box that one.

I had also noted that many of the religious here had backed off of debate or discussion.

I hear that religious heads are trying hard to get their apologists more active as they are losing their flocks ---- rather nicely FMPOV, but they are not having much success. Two things are working against them. The young are getting to bright and sophisticated to bother with the nonsense of fantasy, miracles and magic, and the non-believing apologists are not letting the believers get away with their foolish apologies and demanding a bit of sense. Churches are closing as we speak, --- if not getting bankrupted by law suits for pedophilia.

Life is sweet FMPOV.

Regards
DL

I wanted to see ---again --- if our mutual friend was going to stalk me again.

Do you intend to encourage your mutual friend?-------->

A real pain in the mail box that one.

Interesting choice of words.

I had also noted that many of the religious here had backed off of debate or discussion.

Not much going on other than the Earth Simulator/Spirit World guy trying to rehabilitate his image every once in a while. Don't meet many agnostic/atheists pushing a belief these days.........kinda cool just to let him rattle on.

I hear that religious heads are trying hard to get their apologists more active as they are losing their flocks

Lucky you with so little to lose

The young are getting to bright and sophisticated to bother with the nonsense of fantasy, miracles and magic,

True, fundamentalism and logic aren't complimentary concepts .....but at the same time, that also slices and dices the gnostic community because it's based on even stranger fantasies, miracles and especially magik ....than fundamentalism.
Of course....you do have your fall back plan for corrupting society with addictive/mind altering drugs that could potentially increase your gnostic community.

Life is sweet FMPOV.

That's nice

 

[Minor Axis]

Thanks friend.

I wanted to see ---again --- if our mutual friend was going to stalk me again.
A real pain in the mail box that one.

I had also noted that many of the religious here had backed off of debate or discussion.

I hear that religious heads are trying hard to get their apologists more active as they are losing their flocks ---- rather nicely FMPOV, but they are not having much success. Two things are working against them. The young are getting to bright and sophisticated to bother with the nonsense of fantasy, miracles and magic, and the non-believing apologists are not letting the believers get away with their foolish apologies and demanding a bit of sense. Churches are closing as we speak, --- if not getting bankrupted by law suits for pedophilia.

Life is sweet FMPOV.

Regards
DL

If they annoy to much, put them on ignore and then don't sneak peaks at their posts! It's working well for me. Religious discussion here at OTZ is deader than a door nail.

 

[Stone]

If they annoy to much, put them on ignore and then don't sneak peaks at their posts! It's working well for me. Religious discussion here at OTZ is deader than a door nail.

If they annoy to much, put them on ignore and then don't sneak peaks at their posts!

Interesting debate strategy.......

It's working well for me.

How would you know?.....

Religious discussion here at OTZ is deader than a door nail.

Your crusade against the Christian faith probably didn't help and your position of being an agnostic/atheist while embracing a faith of your own likely not taken seriously.
But go ahead and explain yourself for the umpteenth time and pretend someone is impressed.

 

[Greatest I am]

If they annoy to much, put them on ignore and then don't sneak peaks at their posts! It's working well for me. Religious discussion here at OTZ is deader than a door nail.

I do ignore stalkers and those who cannot come up with decent arguments.

Here, as elsewhere, apologists are dropping like flies.

An intelligent population kills religions as they are not quick to accept fantasy, miracles and magic and genocidal son murdering Gods of war.

Thank God for that. So to speak.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

For the topic.
Enjoy.


[video=youtube;XIoFiDE2awM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIoFiDE2awM[/video]

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

For the topic.
Enjoy.

[video=youtube;UlSknRlQSqs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UlSknRlQSqs[/video]

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

I do ignore stalkers and those who cannot come up with decent arguments.

Here, as elsewhere, apologists are dropping like flies.

An intelligent population kills religions as they are not quick to accept fantasy, miracles and magic and genocidal son murdering Gods of war.

Thank God for that. So to speak.

Regards
DL

I do ignore stalkers and those who cannot come up with decent arguments.

lol!

Here, as elsewhere, apologists are dropping like flies.

Perhaps they are ignoring you?
You really haven't had much to offer in this forum other than grand distortions.
Your logic and lunacy has been great fun for me in a debate setting.
Far more than with fundamentalists and their creation science.
High entertainment value

An intelligent population kills religions as they are not quick to accept fantasy, miracles and magic and genocidal son murdering Gods of war.

Sounds a lot like the reason for the initial demise of gnosticism.

 

[Stone]

While I hope we (in the U.S.) can resist religious based laws, after reading Michelle Bachmann's Dec 2012 suspect speculation that Obama wants to institute Sharia Law in the U.S., I thought it might be interesting to discuss Sharia Law and ask if it has any merits that are compatible with Western Society? My intent is to separate Sharia Law from the Muslim Faith ...............................

My intent is to separate Sharia Law from the Muslim Faith

Since Sharia Law is the religious law of Islam applied to secular life, I don't see how you can accomplish that division. It's explicit fundamentalism written into secular law that defines accepted ethics.

Explain how you intend to accomplish this 'separation', if you can.

 

[Greatest I am]

I would point out to all Muslims of how Mohamed began to sell his religion.

Talk about a way to sell areligion. The promise of all the sex anyone could want in heaven.

And the Muslims who buy intoit think themselves moral.

Tis to laugh.

And Muslim women are slavish enough to go along with such.

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

I would point out to all Muslims of how Mohamed began to sell his religion.

Talk about a way to sell areligion. The promise of all the sex anyone could want in heaven.

And the Muslims who buy intoit think themselves moral.

Tis to laugh.

And Muslim women are slavish enough to go along with such.

Regards
DL

That's addressing the conflict between rational behavior and fundamentalist religious laws.
Minor Axis presented this goal:

My intent is to separate Sharia Law from the Muslim Faith

Because Sharia ( being imposed in the secular sense) is a religious law and based on Islamic theology, it can't be changed with out altering the Islamic faith. That is your attempt.....but it's an act of conversion to the Islamic fundamentalist, not change within their faith...... because of that faith's inherent rigid fundamentalism.
It's a catch 22.
To the Islamic fundamentalist ( from where the imposition of Sharia Law comes from ) change is a violation of his faith. ( and with various interpretations comes the violence we've often seen in the Middle East )

So.....it's not about you imposing your gnostic fundamentalism, or the Christian fundamentalist imposing his or the atheist imposing his position on Sharia Law.......MA's thread carries the challenge of separating religious law (Sharia ) from a fundamentalist religion, based upon religious laws.
(circular reasoning)

When religious law is separated from it's source ( religion ) it's no longer a doctrine of that faith.
At that point, Sharia Law would be something else.


I don't see Sharia Law becoming the Wests legal structure.
I don't want it, either.
In this thread....I am with MA in support of secular law.

I just don't see how he can separate religious law from the religion that generates them with out rewriting them ( and that to the fundamentalist is 'destruction').
So I ask.

Explain how you intend to accomplish this 'separation', if you can.

(MA......see how silly 'ignore' is in a debate forum)

 

[Greatest I am]

That's addressing the conflict between rational behavior and fundamentalist religious laws.
)

Yes. A damned good start.

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

Yes. A damned good start.

Regards
DL

It's also irrelevant to MA's quest......"My intent is to separate Sharia Law from the Muslim Faith "

I've already provided the fallacy and MA remains silent.

 

[The Man]

Very troubling. Does this vigilante action stand up in any court over there?



There is no place for Sharia Law in the States as far as I am concerned. However, is banning necessary? We have a rule of law and it is not Sharia. What would it take to institute Sharia in some jurisdiction, a majority of Muslims on some city council? If so, I'd be for a ban.

Other western nations have had sharia law{but not to the fullest}...rather family laws rather and not criminal laws.
I am for "the law is the law" and any religion should live within those laws.....Example the Amish evade taxes due to their religion...others avoid war due to religion...I am sure there are a multitude of laws we dont know about.
I am against sharia law as well.....my point here is allowing other religions to have special laws opens the gate for sharia law.
Thus ban all special treatments for all religions....Agreed?

 

[Stone]

Other western nations have had sharia law{but not to the fullest}...rather family laws rather and not criminal laws.
I am for "the law is the law" and any religion should live within those laws.....Example the Amish evade taxes due to their religion...others avoid war due to religion...I am sure there are a multitude of laws we dont know about.
I am against sharia law as well.....my point here is allowing other religions to have special laws opens the gate for sharia law.
Thus ban all special treatments for all religions....Agreed?

Other western nations have had sharia law{but not to the fullest}...rather family laws rather and not criminal laws.

It looks like MA's intent was to discuss civil and criminal laws rather than the conventions people impose upon themselves.

I am for "the law is the law" and any religion should live within those laws

In relevance to this thread, it's important where 'the law is the law' is derived and who enforces.
This is why separation of state and religion is important.
It's the difference between a democratic society making it's choices versus a dominant religious group/denomination making all choices.
There is often a mistake made on how and why this separation occurred in the US.
Madison impressed the need for separation in the Federalist Papers from his experiences as a younger man.
Many seem to think the purpose was to protect agnostics, atheists and other non Christian religious followers from discrimination, but Madison had seen discrimination and abuse by specific Christian denominations upon other Christian groups at a time when the Colonies were mostly Christian.
Add to that the situation in Revolutionary times of the Church of England requiring their church leadership in the Colonies to swear loyalty to the King of England resulting in essentially a network of spies for England. It would be a negative influence to the freedom of a new nation to have such men of a religious organization in political positions that have first sworn allegiance to a foreign enemy.

Sharia Law as a legal system breaks those boundaries between church and state and institutes a theocracy. Exactly what the founders of our nation intentionally avoided.

Example the Amish evade taxes due to their religion

It only involves Social Security for those living as a 'community' and they do not want nor receive SS benefits. As far as I know, they pay all other appropriate taxes.

others avoid war due to religion

It was because of their position on being conscientious objectors.....which, while the draft was enforced, was the reason. Religion was usually the argument, but non believers could make a similar argument.

I am sure there are a multitude of laws we dont know about.

The 'right' of not reporting crimes nor allowing information learned at confession be offered to police on request, is one of those I don't agree with......no doubt there are others.