Canadian Welfare System

[Johnfromokc]

This was quite interesting. How do our Canuck members feel abou tthe Canadian welfare system?

We need our federal legislators to take the welfare challenge. Could you imagine those prima donna's having to spend a month in a housing project in east LA?

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Welfare+experiment+brings+tears+Surrey+eyes/5953551/story.html

NDP MLA Jagrup Brar holds a press conference inside his $375 per month room in Surrey, B.C. on January 4, 2012. He is spending a month living on the $610 welfare rate to see what it is like.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/busines...+Surrey+eyes/5953551/story.html#ixzz1inJOohvX


Photograph by: Ian Smith, PNG

METRO VANCOUVER -- Five days into his Welfare Challenge, Surrey Fleetwood NDP MLA Jagrup Brar is looking tired.

He admitted to being in tears earlier this week.

On Thursday, he showed off where he is living and the food he has bought as he tries to live on the $610 a month a single adult receives while on social assistance.

“Living in poverty is hard and demoralizing. Looking for food makes your body tired,” said Brar, who undertook the experiment in response to a challenge by Raise the Rates, a coalition of social groups that wants the B.C. government to raise welfare payments.

On Wednesday, he was out looking for a place to stay aided by a worker from Hyland House, a Surrey-based organization that runs a homeless shelter.

Brar had put together a list of possible rooms he could rent for the $375 government housing allowance, but was shocked at what he found.

“The first house had four little rooms and was a dirty and filthy looking old house,” said Brar.

He said the room available for rent had no laundry facilities and the landlord wanted $450 a month “for a place no one would want to stay for one day.”

The next home he visited was similar.

This landlord then showed Brar another room on the side of the house.

“That was heartbreaking, shocking for me. This was a room like a closet. It was three feet wide, seven feet long with a single bed in it occupying the whole space,” he said.

“You could barely step in and go straight to your bed. There was no window. The landlord told me the person who was going to occupy that room was a patient coming from hospital after an operation.

“It was unimaginable for me to hear that people have to chose to live in those kinds of places, tears started falling out of my eyes,” he said.

This room rented for $300 a month.

“The person who showed me that closet-like room owns 50 rooms. She is making $20,000 a month on the backs of the poor of B.C. with the help of the ministry. It’s unacceptable and immoral,” he said.

Brar settled for staying in an illegal rooming house on 136A St. that is clean and well-kept and has seven other tenants. The spacious room rents for $400 a month, but he will only pay for the part of the month he will stay there.

“This is like a seven-star hotel compared to the other places,” said Brar.

On Wednesday, he went shopping for food, spending $32.87 for a variety of packaged foods, some milk, vegetables, fruit, bread and peanut butter.

Brar said he would stay in the Surrey rooming house for 16 days and then look for a place to live in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver.

After other expenses, he figures he has about $67 left for food for the rest of the month.
“It’s hard for me to realize that we have 137,000 children living in poverty in this province,” he said.

​

​

 

[Johnfromokc]

Appropriate for this thread:

 

[Guyzerr]

There is no Canadian welfare system. Each province and in some cases municipalities draft their own legislation that sets the limits of what a person is entitled to.

The story you posted is from my province and I am aware of what he intends to do. He's made it known over the last few months and it is something that's been done before albeit a long time ago. I'm thinking he should have done it during the Christmas season if he wanted to gather some real support but I suppose he wasn't willing to make that sacrifice. I do applaud him for taking up the challenge though.

Anywhoo, to answer your question. The short answer is..... I have mixed feelings about our system. On one hand they don't receive enough to actually survive without most having to resort to stuff most of us here wouldn't ever consider doing. On the other hand welfare shouldn't be something that a person wants to stay on for any extended period of time. I am well aware that most don't want to be on welfare but there are those that will take advantage of any opportunity not to be a responsible tax paying citizen. imo it's there to provide short term emergency support for those that have become victims of misfortune.

He did mention he was going to be moving out of his digs mid month and move to Vancouver's east side. That is something I believe he should rethink. It's one of North Americas heroin capitals and an area I know very well from my " homeless " days 43 years ago. It was very nasty then and I'm sure it's only gotten worse. He's going to witness things that will remain embedded in his brain for the rest of his life if he steps outside after sunset.

 

[Guyzerr]

I forgot to mention. I believe if he was actually on the welfare roll he would be entitled to free health insurance, prescription drugs, dental etc. and a tax return at the end of the year. That would be deducted off his monthly benefit cheque but the bottom line would still be the payment was covered by the Canadian taxpayer. He / she would also be entitled to the quarterly GST rebate cheque paid for by you know who only to be deducted as well.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I am well aware that most don't want to be on welfare but there are those that will take advantage of any opportunity not to be a responsible tax paying citizen. imo it's there to provide short term emergency support for those that have become victims of misfortune.

Thanks for your input Guyz.

What percentage of those on welfare would you guess are intentionally gaming the system? I couldn't imagine that situation being one any self-respecting person would tolerate any longer than necessary.

 

[Alien Allen]

Thanks for your input Guyz.

What percentage of those on welfare would you guess are intentionally gaming the system? I couldn't imagine that situation being one any self-respecting person would tolerate any longer than necessary.

Hate to tell you but there are people that fit that description. No idea the percentage but it would appear to be significant for I would think anybody with self respect would get off the dole as soon as they can and not be on it for extended periods. Not talking about the last couple years but before the Clinton reforms.

IMO welfare became much more than a short term safety net.

 

[Guyzerr]

Thanks for your input Guyz.

What percentage of those on welfare would you guess are intentionally gaming the system? I couldn't imagine that situation being one any self-respecting person would tolerate any longer than necessary.

I wouldn't have any idea what the actual numbers would be and I believe it would be disrespectful for me to take a shot at guessing.

What I will say though is " way back when " my alcoholic father left my mother with four mouths to feed. She fought tooth and nail to pull herself and her kids up out of the gutter. She hated welfare but back then women didn't really work out of the home. Most women were stay at home moms. They married young, had their kids and were the only childcare their kids knew. Because of that their " outside skills " to earn a living were basically nonexistent. In most cases their education didn't go past the 8th grade because there wasn't a need for it. These are the people that the system was designed for.

On the other side of the coin there are a few that I know very well today that have no desire to better themselves. Even though they won't actually vocalize their thoughts they have worked the system for a period of time that stretches into years. They know the system inside and out and will take advantage any time they can. They have no problem spending our hard earned dollars on drugs and alcohol and that's something I will never agree with. These are the people that give the system a bad name.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Hate to tell you but there are people that fit that description. No idea the percentage but it would appear to be significant for I would think anybody with self respect would get off the dole as soon as they can and not be on it for extended periods. Not talking about the last couple years but before the Clinton reforms.

IMO welfare became much more than a short term safety net.

I'm not talking about American welfare Allen. We all know the issues we have. When welfare pays as much or more than minimum wage, there is little incentive to work. That's yet another reason I'd like to see a living wage law in the U.S.

I wouldn't have any idea what the actual numbers would be and I believe it would be disrespectful for me to take a shot at guessing.

What I will say though is " way back when " my alcoholic father left my mother with four mouths to feed. She fought tooth and nail to pull herself and her kids up out of the gutter. She hated welfare but back then women didn't really work out of the home. Most women were stay at home moms. They married young, had their kids and were the only childcare their kids knew. Because of that their " outside skills " to earn a living were basically nonexistent. In most cases their education didn't go past the 8th grade because there wasn't a need for it. These are the people that the system was designed for.

On the other side of the coin there are a few that I know very well today that have no desire to better themselves. Even though they won't actually vocalize their thoughts they have worked the system for a period of time that stretches into years. They know the system inside and out and will take advantage any time they can. They have no problem spending our hard earned dollars on drugs and alcohol and that's something I will never agree with. These are the people that give the system a bad name.

Guyz - How does your minimum wage compare to the monthly welfare payment?

 

[Francis]

Some of the numbers put out by our province for our "Welfare" system for single men.. This would mean less than 6% of men are on Welfare for a specific periods of time..

Facts About Single Men on Welfare - Basic BC Benefits
% of single men on welfare who are employable	76%
Average length of first IA spell - single men	5.6 months
Average length of first IA spell - all cases	6.4 months
% of single men who return within 24 months of leaving IA	60%
% of all cases who return within 24 months of leaving IA	57%
% of single men who were working or receiving EI prior to returning to IA	82%
Principal reason that single men apply for IA	No job, not EI Eligible
% who apply because of No job, not EI eligible	39%
Average age of single men on welfare	35 years
Largest 5 year age cohort of single men	19-24 years
% of caseload age 19-24	19%
% of caseload age 25-59	80%
% of caseload under age	19 1%

http://www.mhr.gov.bc.ca/research/archive/97/9703TXT.htm

Here are the rates a person can expect to have to live on in a City that has the highest cost of living on North America.. So you could say this would be equal to living in New York City on these rates which have not changed since 2007..

http://www.mhr.gov.bc.ca/factsheets/2007/increase_table.htm

 

[Johnfromokc]

Thanks for the info Francis. What are your thoughts on your provinces welfare system?

 

[Francis]

While some can get around the system I know few who really need it and can barely survive..

Also this Brar guy did not apply for "Welfare" and only took the money equal to welfare out of his pocket.. If you ever have to apply for the system it is degrading and leaves you with very little of personal possessions to call your own. For those that should be using it as a stop gap process, it is impossible to use while you are require to sign a form saying you will repay the system.. If so why would you want to get rid of such things as life insurance policies, if you cannot default on it and must repay the system at all costs..

So for a system to be be there for those in need, it is more there for those to abuse.. It is really set up to fail by giving those who need it not enough to get or remain on their feet.. My opinion only..

 

[Kyle B]

Welfare, regardless of where you go, is going to be unpleasant. Interestingly, I read somewhere that in a particular state, you could expect around $900 in total assistance. I'm sorry, but I can't cite the actual article or statistic. If that's true, it's about the same as the person in the article you provide

I think the biggest goal of the welfare system should be to get people out of the cycle of poverty and help them regain their footing. This requires a certain state of mind for government officials, society, and those who accept assistance. I'm betting it's a bit difficult to find the balance between just giving people money and actually helping them move forward. Both sides with an agenda are going to overplay contrasting views of the system, and it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Both sides with an agenda are going to overplay contrasting views of the system, and it's hard to get everyone on the same page.

This is true in so many areas where social programs are concerned.

 

[Francis]

Thanks for the info Francis. What are your thoughts on your provinces welfare system?

Your welcome..

 

[Mystic]

I rent homes to some welfare recipients and what i have seen is most don't need to be on it. Those who are on it have everything paid for - rent, heat, electric, water, furniture(moving expenses) and food. They can and do live entirely for free. They use the 800 plus that is given to a single person per month here in Ontario on drugs, booze, and items most of us working people can not afford to buy(name brand clothing, etc...).

From my experience of what i witness in Ontario, is that we actually encourage people to remain dependent on the taxpayers teet. Who in there right mind would want to get off welfare when they can get everything for free PLUS do what ever they want with money they haven't earned? Only those with pride and a sense of self see that staying on welfare is not something to remain on. I see VERY few of these people. I'd say 1 in about 50 families i have rented to have actually tried to get off welfare.

In Canada across the country, we DO need to make it more uncomfortable to stay on welfare regardless of the 600 they get in BC or the 800 they get in ON. Drug tests and mandatory education should be the start of that solution.

Just as a working person gets a drug test, or a working person has to show proof of expense for money used so should a person on welfare have to prove they are using the money they are given in a proper fashion. It should not be called welfare but rather a wage a person has to earn by doing these tasks.

Also, woman who are on welfare for a long period should be discouraged in breeding. I have seen far too many take advantage of the fact they get more money by the amount of children they have. They will have children just to 'top-up' the amount, and some even trade their children around so that others can take guardianship so as to take advantage of the system.

The children suffer the worst and its not do to the amount of money their adult guardians are given but rather in how those guardians use the money they are 'entitled' too.

 

[Johnfromokc]

Interesting perspective Mystic. Do you work for a government agency that provides housing? Are there private real estate investors that provide the property for government supplemented rents? What are the ways in which housing is made available to welfare recipients?

 

[Mystic]

Interesting perspective Mystic. Do you work for a government agency that provides housing? Are there private real estate investors that provide the property for government supplemented rents? What are the ways in which housing is made available to welfare recipients?

I provide houses and keep my rent fairly lower than what market rates are right now. I only rent to families, so never to a single occupant. The process in which these people go about getting the money is as follows:

Firstly we agree on them being the occupant and a lease is written up showing the amount of money per month the recipient will require on the exchange of the keys and the allowance into the property. This lease is then given/ shown to the tenants welfare officer/agent where the application is agreed upon. I ALWAYS ask for direct cheque from the welfare office and not through the welfare recipient otherwise more times than not, you won't see the money. Then once a month I get the the cheque from the government with the occupants name and address listed on it.

As for the other things such as heat, electricity... they will do the same as what they did with me. An application for them to get their product subsidized by the government is made. It takes on average for a person to receive all this for free less than a week.

Anyone in Canada regardless of what province they are in can live entirely for free as long as they go about applying for all these 'benefits' that our country offers.

* no i don't work for the government, although i wish i could as it would certainly allow me to gain access to better funding in order to fix the houses that these welfare people destroy.

 

[Johnfromokc]

I provide houses and keep my rent fairly lower than what market rates are right now. I only rent to families, so never to a single occupant. The process in which these people go about getting the money is as follows:

Firstly we agree on them being the occupant and a lease is written up showing the amount of money per month the recipient will require on the exchange of the keys and the allowance into the property. This lease is then given/ shown to the tenants welfare officer/agent where the application is agreed upon. I ALWAYS ask for direct cheque from the welfare office and not through the welfare recipient otherwise more times than not, you won't see the money. Then once a month I get the the cheque from the government with the occupants name and address listed on it.

As for the other things such as heat, electricity... they will do the same as what they did with me. An application for them to get their product subsidized by the government is made. It takes on average for a person to receive all this for free less than a week.

Anyone in Canada regardless of what province they are in can live entirely for free as long as they go about applying for all these 'benefits' that our country offers.

* no i don't work for the government, although i wish i could as it would certainly allow me to gain access to better funding in order to fix the houses that these welfare people destroy.

OK - That sounds similar to our "Section 8" housing here. So you are the owner of these properties then? Here's how our S8 housing works:

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/groups/landlords

You hear the same stories here with landlords having to make more repairs to S8 housing than to conventional rentals. Also, the government only gives the landlord part of the rent, the tenant pays the rest - so bounced checks are common.

Each of our 50 states has a HUD office:

http://www.ochanet.org/section8_info/landlord_information.htm

Your system sounds a lot like ours.

 

[Mystic]

Yes i own them, and i think most if not all western counties have very similar systems. Our countries vary little in how we deal with the poor. It has been to both the benefit of our countries and the downfall of them as we have created a world that encourages dependance on the system.

 

[palzz]

LL's are totally unnecessary to a productive economy: Section 8 agency and/or Habitat

for Humanity co-op folks should oversee any housing repairs when residents are too sick to do so.
Otherwise, all housing should be bought by the government then turned over to whoever is now living there.
LL's produce nothing. No board weeds out the abusive loonies among them.
Put them out of business along with the payday loan weasels.
Give grannie LL's a replacement check monthly - they probably all need such an income. I understand that scene.
/////
People need a safe place to rereat and recover from the day's craziness out in our jungle society.
A secure peaceful place.
"Standard housing " is our legal term.
Yet here, I see people sleeping on library steps. Horrifying. The cathedral of civilization , the library, with humans tossed against it like refuse. The juxtaposition of those two elements was horrifying.
////
All on a planet with $66,000/yr for every family of six (see Wiki, at "PPP list world avg"). Corporate economies are failures.