A visualization of the United States Debt

[retro]

In $100 bills.

http://www.wtfnoway.com/

Absolutely freaking ridiculous that it's gotten this far. Yet both parties want to keep spending the way that we've been doing for years. For the full ticker, take a look at this...

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

But sure, let's just keep ramping up the entitlement programs, illegally dropping bombs on countries that don't threaten us, sending money to countries that want to see us wiped off the face of the earth, and God knows what else. :thumbup

 

[retro]

Hell, on the National Debt clock, take a look at the debt clock time machine... In the last 11 years, our national debt has increased from $5.7 trillion to the $14.5 trillion we sit at right now... an increase of $8.8 trillion. The "best" part is that half of that has occurred in the last four years.

Someone has this as their signature on another forum, and it's very fitting in this context.

What I'm talking about is a comprehensive rejection of the entire direction our government is taking, along with a mature understanding that Barack Obama didn’t so much change our course, as radically increase our velocity

Nothing has changed, the only thing that changed was the speed at which we hurtle into financial ruin. The Republicans aren't the answer, the Democrats sure as fuck aren't the answer, and most mainstream Libertarians aren't the answer either (though they're a far sight better than the other two). We need a complete re-start of our government... a restructuring of how things work, elimination of things that are unnecessary, streamlining of the process at which things happen. but unfortunately, none of that will ever come to fruition... because too many other factors are already entrenched in the process to ever let anything change. We have to stop spending more than we take in. How is that such a goddamn fucking difficult concept for these fucking idiots in Washington to grasp? We've let the government run wild with spending and haven't done a damn thing to stop them. We keep putting people in power that don't give a shit about anything but staying in power... I'm talking about 95% of the politicians on both sides of the aisle here... I needed to clarify, lest one of our more liberal leaning members here decide to use that as an excuse to start up their vendetta against the Republicans in here.

At our current rate of spending, we're looking at a national debt of $22.8 trillion in 2015, or $18 trillion by current CBO estimates. How is this acceptable? Anyone have an answer? We're taxing my unborn great-grandchildren at this point in time. How is that considered to be ethical?

It honestly just makes me sick.

 

[Panacea]

Stick our heads up our arses and hide in a bomb shelter. :dunno
Honestly, things aren't going to get better. Nothing will change fast enough to matter, and the problem is our addiction to entertainment politics and it's creation of brain dead slappie voters.

Politicians only ever reflect the wants of the public; superficially (the outcome is always the same). This is not on the politicians, it's on the voters. When you go up to the guy in the alley with the trench coat full of watches and he steals your wallet, do you blame him or yourself for being so fucking stupid?

That's how I see it, at least. I don't know the answer to this, and anyone who says they do is either lying or has a book to sell.
I'm not talking about your suggestion to stop spending, I'm talking about those who think they "know" what will turn this country around.

 

[Accountable]

We're spoiled and addicted to entitlements. The best thing I see happening for the nation is a swift collapse and hope that the new gov't will not define liberty as free shit from the gov't.

 

[Panacea]

Just asking out of ignorance/interest and not trolling, what are some nations (that aren't third world of course ) that don't have entitlement systems?

...or maybe it's better to ask which ones have fewer.

 

[Minor Axis]

But sure, let's just keep ramping up the entitlement programs, illegally dropping bombs on countries that don't threaten us, sending money to countries that want to see us wiped off the face of the earth, and God knows what else. :thumbup

What new entitlement programs you referring to? I agree with the last portion of your statement.

We're spoiled and addicted to entitlements. The best thing I see happening for the nation is a swift collapse and hope that the new gov't will not define liberty as free shit from the gov't.

Do you consider SS and Medicare free shit from the gov't? When they do away with Medicare and the insurance companies has you by the short hairs what you gonna do then? Are you prepared to spend 1000+ per month on medical insurance?

 

[retro]

What new entitlement programs you referring to? I agree with the last portion of your statement.

Well, there's an obvious push towards single payer health care... I think we'll see that if Obama is re-elected, especially if Obamacare is deemed unconstitutional. I've honestly believed all along that Obamacare was merely a smokescreen in order to push for single payer further down the line. Both parties seem to be pushing towards further dependence on the government for our daily needs, whether it be through corporate welfare, farm subsidies, social security, medicare, private citizen welfare, or anything else.

 

[Minor Axis]

Well, there's an obvious push towards single payer health care... I think we'll see that if Obama is re-elected, especially if Obamacare is deemed unconstitutional. I've honestly believed all along that Obamacare was merely a smokescreen in order to push for single payer further down the line. Both parties seem to be pushing towards further dependence on the government for our daily needs, whether it be through corporate welfare, farm subsidies, social security, medicare, private citizen welfare, or anything else.

Insurance=entitlement only in the mind of a conservative. I realize you work in the medical field and want to part of stinking government insurance telling you how much you can charge a patient.

 

[retro]

Insurance=entitlement only in the mind of a conservative. I realize you work in the medical field and want to part of stinking government insurance telling you how much you can charge a patient.

Actually, I don't work in the medical field. I have previously though. But no, the government should not have the right to dictate what physicians can and cannot charge for their services.

 

[Joe the meek]

We're spoiled and addicted to entitlements. The best thing I see happening for the nation is a swift collapse and hope that the new gov't will not define liberty as free shit from the gov't.

I happened to think like you for most of my life.

I started working and collecting a paycheck at the age of 15, and per what I get back from the government, seems I've worked every year since then (over 30 years easily).

I've never taken a check that I didn't work for.

Now, all that said, since doing some volunteer work and actually seeing what some others do to help those that my be less fortunate, some of my views have changed, particularly to those that I would consider "free loaders".

I realize that there is abuse in our system. ANYTIME you have people involved, there is a good chance for abuse. That said, I've seen first hand GOOD if not GREAT programs that have been set up to help those in need (at no fault of their own) that have been cutting cut (usually at the sake of those who volunteer their own time who aren't doing it to make money). This makes me shake my head in sadness.

God help me, I'm starting to sound like John:24:

 

[Accountable]

I happened to think like you for most of my life.

I started working and collecting a paycheck at the age of 15, and per what I get back from the government, seems I've worked every year since then (over 30 years easily).

I've never taken a check that I didn't work for.

Now, all that said, since doing some volunteer work and actually seeing what some others do to help those that my be less fortunate, some of my views have changed, particularly to those that I would consider "free loaders".

I realize that there is abuse in our system. ANYTIME you have people involved, there is a good chance for abuse. That said, I've seen first hand GOOD if not GREAT programs that have been set up to help those in need (at no fault of their own) that have been cutting cut (usually at the sake of those who volunteer their own time who aren't doing it to make money). This makes me shake my head in sadness.

God help me, I'm starting to sound like John:24:

I've also done volunteer work. The longest stint was when I was unemployed in 2005 and going insane sitting at home making calls and sending out resumes. Hurricane Katrina hit and thousands of evacuees were brought to San Antonio. I worked 6 hours a day, 6 days a week for 3 months. One of the most fulfilling times of my life. These are the people who would survive an economic collapse. They'd be helping the less fortunate formerly rich people.

 

[retro]

So I'm still waiting to find out why the libs think it's a good idea to increase both taxes and spending. All that will do is perpetuate the problem. You either need one of them, or both. I'd obviously prefer to see a massive reduction in spending. I hate the fact that Defense spending is this holy grail to the Republicans. I also hate the fact that Obama still hasn't gotten us out of the giant clusterfucks that are Afghanistan and Iraq, while involving us in a third illegal conflict. It's fucking absurd.

 

[Minor Axis]

Text correction:

Insurance=entitlement only in the mind of a conservative. I realize you work in the medical field and want no part of stinking government insurance telling you how much you can charge a patient.

So I'm still waiting to find out why the libs think it's a good idea to increase both taxes and spending. All that will do is perpetuate the problem. You either need one of them, or both. I'd obviously prefer to see a massive reduction in spending. I hate the fact that Defense spending is this holy grail to the Republicans. I also hate the fact that Obama still hasn't gotten us out of the giant clusterfucks that are Afghanistan and Iraq, while involving us in a third illegal conflict. It's fucking absurd.

Waiting? I want spending reduced. Obama and the Democrats in Congress have said they want spending reduced. They also want taxes raised back to the pre-W days. I'm good with that too. I'm pissed we are still at war with a President who campaigned to get us out of there in a timely fashion. In my mind, years is not timely.

 

[Joe the meek]

I've also done volunteer work. The longest stint was when I was unemployed in 2005 and going insane sitting at home making calls and sending out resumes. Hurricane Katrina hit and thousands of evacuees were brought to San Antonio. I worked 6 hours a day, 6 days a week for 3 months. One of the most fulfilling times of my life. These are the people who would survive an economic collapse. They'd be helping the less fortunate formerly rich people.

To some extent, Katrina is a prime example of what can happen when you have programs to help people. People administrating the program can abuse it, and people who the system is intended to help can abuse it (not having the money actually go to people that are in need, who are probably in the minority). I guess that's what happens when you throw a lot of money around. Please keep in mind, my comments are not directed towards to at all, but just a general observation of what happens when people deal with large sums of money.

 

[Accountable]

To some extent, Katrina is a prime example of what can happen when you have programs to help people. People administrating the program can abuse it, and people who the system is intended to help can abuse it (not having the money actually go to people that are in need, who are probably in the minority). I guess that's what happens when you throw a lot of money around. Please keep in mind, my comments are not directed towards to at all, but just a general observation of what happens when people deal with large sums of money.

That was one of the ugly things I saw, not the abuse itself but the reactions of some of the others. Rumors bounced around all over the place that some were getting two voucher cards, but the reaction wasn't anger that someone would cheat to get more but that someone else was getting more than they themselves were. I didn't describe that very well, but do you see the difference? That jealousy was not exactly rampant but it was noticeable. "Those guys always get fed first and it's cold by the time we get there." That kind of thing. They didn't seem to notice when they themselves were fed first, only when someone else was.

/derail
sorry

 

[retro]

Waiting? I want spending reduced. Obama and the Democrats in Congress have said they want spending reduced. They also want taxes raised back to the pre-W days. I'm good with that too. I'm pissed we are still at war with a President who campaigned to get us out of there in a timely fashion. In my mind, years is not timely.

Then you're one of the few that actually wants spending reduced. So, I guess you're good with taxes being raised on what you've called a shrinking middle class? Wouldn't that make things even worse for them? Especially people that are in the 15% bracket right now that would get bumped up to 28%. That sounds like an absolutely brilliant idea to me. What people seem to conveniently forget is that that top two brackets were reduced by all of 3% and 4.6%, while the two lowest tax brackets were reduced by 10% and 13%. So wouldn't taking taxes back to pre-W days actually hurt the middle class?

 

[retro]

Another point I've been meaning to make is this.

Obama has proposed about $5.5 trillion in spending increases in the budget that he put forward in April. Yet we're quibbling over a spending reduction of $1 trillion. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand why the fuckheads in Washington can't adhere to the simple accounting principles that Obama himself has told Americans they need to do. Tighten their belts in light of the current economic situation. But I guess what they claim is good for the public as a whole isn't good for Washington. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Joe the meek]

That was one of the ugly things I saw, not the abuse itself but the reactions of some of the others. Rumors bounced around all over the place that some were getting two voucher cards, but the reaction wasn't anger that someone would cheat to get more but that someone else was getting more than they themselves were. I didn't describe that very well, but do you see the difference? That jealousy was not exactly rampant but it was noticeable. "Those guys always get fed first and it's cold by the time we get there." That kind of thing. They didn't seem to notice when they themselves were fed first, only when someone else was.

/derail
sorry

I appreciate the insight. What's funny is some of the 501c3 organizations we volunteer for would be jumping for joy for a $100 check.

Is what you described any different than pork barrel spending? IMO it really isn't.

"Hey, as long we get ours, who cares what they get?"

Funny thing is the Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats (at least in my area) on some of the money they want to spend.

 

[Accountable]

I appreciate the insight. What's funny is some of the 501c3 organizations we volunteer for would be jumping for joy for a $100 check.

Is what you described any different than pork barrel spending? IMO it really isn't.

"Hey, as long we get ours, who cares what they get?"

Funny thing is the Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats (at least in my area) on some of the money they want to spend.

Sure it's pork barrel spending. I don't see any appreciable difference between the Dems & Repubs. Every decision, imo absolutely everything they do, is made through filters focused purely on personal political gain. It's systemic.

 

[Minor Axis]

Then you're one of the few that actually wants spending reduced. So, I guess you're good with taxes being raised on what you've called a shrinking middle class? Wouldn't that make things even worse for them? Especially people that are in the 15% bracket right now that would get bumped up to 28%. That sounds like an absolutely brilliant idea to me. What people seem to conveniently forget is that that top two brackets were reduced by all of 3% and 4.6%, while the two lowest tax brackets were reduced by 10% and 13%. So wouldn't taking taxes back to pre-W days actually hurt the middle class?

That's possible. I think the Obama proposal was to take the top brackets back to pre-W and leave the rest as is. As we speak the top levels of management are very busy enriching themselves at the expense of the employees and even share holders. Corporations who make billions should be paying a lot more taxes.

The conservatives in this forum believe in sharing the load, right? But lets clarify how much of the load do you expect those living in poverty to share? And much greater harm is coming from Corporate America's attack on the Middle Class, not Middle Class tax rates. Any company who moves high paying jobs out of country needs a solid kick in the nuts. We are a society and supposed to be loyal to one another, but we are not. The standard is becoming every greedy bastard for themselves. No conservative wants to acknowledge this, they just want to whine how they are being abused by government tax rates.

Let's go back to pre-W tax rates, except leave the current bottom tax rates along, get rid of loop holes, make corporations pay their fair share, and reduce spending. I don't know about you, now that I've been forced into paying SS and Medicare for the last 40 years, I want it for retirement as do most Americans in every poll taken (that I have seen). You can't have something for nothing.