What does in God’s image mean? He created Adam & Eve without a moral sense.

[Greatest I am]

What does in God’s image mean? He created Adam & Eve without a moral sense.

I take, in God’s image, to refer to God’s and our mental image and not the physical. God does not look like us in any way. He and his form is quite alien to us.

Genesis shows that Adam & Eve were created without the moral sense that would make them like Gods. That being the case, they had to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be in God’s mental image. That is without a doubt a requirement to the development of a moral sense and is confirmed by God after Adam and Eve disobeyed his command to stay dumb and without a moral sense.

If they were created in God’s image then they would have already had the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil and would therefore not have been tempted by Satan to eat of the tree of knowledge because they would have had that knowledge already. This would also mean that God was punishing them unjustly.

One must conclude from these biblical facts, that God did not make mankind in his image.

The only other logical alternative is that God does not have a moral sense and that he too, like Adam and Eve, was basically as dumb as a cow.

Could that be why God is shown as doing other immoral things in scriptures?

The two main ones that come to mind is God having his own son murdered for the forgiveness of sin when there was no real need to and the genocide of Noah’s day.

Does being in God's image mean not having a moral sense?

Regards
DL

 

[Honey Bunny]

dude, i really doubt you have a great grasp of God at all judging from your posts, i'm not being mean just stating it how *i* happen to see it.

God created Adam and Eve to be perfect people, thus he created them in his/her image (god does not have a gender btw it's just easier to call god "HE")

Morality is not something you can SEE on the outside so their morals (or lack there of) do not reflect on their outward appearance.

God is NEVER seen in the bible. EVER. Only Moses and one other person who I can't recall at the moment ever saw God, The site of God turned Moses's hair white from the sheer shock. the other person (again who i cant recall) was whisked away straight to heaven, the only person to ever go to heaven and not die first.

God wanted Adam and Eve to be his perfect chosen people to live in paradise and worship him, they were not the first nor the last people created on earth, proof lies with in when Cain kills Abel God casts him out of the garden of Eden and he is forced to roam villages. those places cant magically poof into existence.

you claim that Adam and Eve (and god) are dumb as cows before the tree of knowledges fruit is eaten by Adam and Eve, that can't be further from the truth. Adam and Eve were created perfect in Gods perfect garden, there was no sin, no shame and no evil deeds in the garden before the fruit was eaten. That's not lack of morals, that's lack of MODERN DAY morals, which shift with each generation. we cant go judging morals of a time lost by those of todays standards.

I can get that you don't like Christianity, but seriously stop the bashing it's annoying and your threads are getting so boring and predictable IMO of course I could be so wrong.

 

[Zorak]

I think "created in His own image" is one of those beautiful and incredibly deep passages from the Bible.

It can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I tend to read it as an exploration of fallibility. There are 4 parties involved in Eden, in order of appearance they are God, Adam, Eve and the Snake. And each one is guilty of something. You have an omnipotent and spiteful God who forbids access to knowledge and punishes Adam and Eve for an outcome he must have known, a male character who is in the image of the above character, and a female character who is in the image of both - by extension. As well as a snake, who is a metaphor for evil. No one character caused the fall on their own. Rather instead the way God fashioned a scenario fit for disaster, Adam and Eve's natural inherited disobedience and the snakes temptations all come together to create the outcome we know so well.
Since all are fallible, events play out like a prophecy, with each character playing their role within the narrative. Remember that the Bible spends 99% of it's time on Earth. It's exposition is this story of how humanity came to Earth, and it will end with the eventual departure of humanity from Earth. It is a human tale of redemption, rather than a celestial one.

 

[Greatest I am]

dude, i really doubt you have a great grasp of God at all judging from your posts, i'm not being mean just stating it how *i* happen to see it.

God created Adam and Eve to be perfect people, thus he created them in his/her image (god does not have a gender btw it's just easier to call god "HE")

Morality is not something you can SEE on the outside so their morals (or lack there of) do not reflect on their outward appearance.

God is NEVER seen in the bible. EVER. Only Moses and one other person who I can't recall at the moment ever saw God, The site of God turned Moses's hair white from the sheer shock. the other person (again who i cant recall) was whisked away straight to heaven, the only person to ever go to heaven and not die first.

God wanted Adam and Eve to be his perfect chosen people to live in paradise and worship him, they were not the first nor the last people created on earth, proof lies with in when Cain kills Abel God casts him out of the garden of Eden and he is forced to roam villages. those places cant magically poof into existence.

you claim that Adam and Eve (and god) are dumb as cows before the tree of knowledges fruit is eaten by Adam and Eve, that can't be further from the truth. Adam and Eve were created perfect in Gods perfect garden, there was no sin, no shame and no evil deeds in the garden before the fruit was eaten. That's not lack of morals, that's lack of MODERN DAY morals, which shift with each generation. we cant go judging morals of a time lost by those of todays standards.

I can get that you don't like Christianity, but seriously stop the bashing it's annoying and your threads are getting so boring and predictable IMO of course I could be so wrong.

If God created A & E perfect as you say, then they must have made the perfect choice. Right?

If not, and perfect can do the imperfect, then God can also do the imperfect. If so and we are not in a perfect state, then the creator is culpable for what is.

Right?

BTW, how can you know what God wants or wanted, and being omnimax, does God not always get what he wills?
Is what is not what he planned all along?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I think "created in His own image" is one of those beautiful and incredibly deep passages from the Bible.

It can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I tend to read it as an exploration of fallibility. There are 4 parties involved in Eden, in order of appearance they are God, Adam, Eve and the Snake. And each one is guilty of something. You have an omnipotent and spiteful God who forbids access to knowledge and punishes Adam and Eve for an outcome he must have known, a male character who is in the image of the above character, and a female character who is in the image of both - by extension. As well as a snake, who is a metaphor for evil. No one character caused the fall on their own. Rather instead the way God fashioned a scenario fit for disaster, Adam and Eve's natural inherited disobedience and the snakes temptations all come together to create the outcome we know so well.
Since all are fallible, events play out like a prophecy, with each character playing their role within the narrative. Remember that the Bible spends 99% of it's time on Earth. It's exposition is this story of how humanity came to Earth, and it will end with the eventual departure of humanity from Earth. It is a human tale of redemption, rather than a celestial one.

True that no one caused the fall on their own. If it was indeed a fall.

Those who have the real authority over Eden, the Jews, did not write in a fall bur instead wrote in an elevation for man and not a fall.

If a fall, then do you care to tell us what is evil about becoming as Gods or developing a moral sense and autonomy.

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

What does in God’s image mean? He created Adam & Eve without a moral sense.

I take, in God’s image, to refer to God’s and our mental image and not the physical. God does not look like us in any way. He and his form is quite alien to us.

Genesis shows that Adam & Eve were created without the moral sense that would make them like Gods. That being the case, they had to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be in God’s mental image. That is without a doubt a requirement to the development of a moral sense and is confirmed by God after Adam and Eve disobeyed his command to stay dumb and without a moral sense.

If they were created in God’s image then they would have already had the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil and would therefore not have been tempted by Satan to eat of the tree of knowledge because they would have had that knowledge already. This would also mean that God was punishing them unjustly.

One must conclude from these biblical facts, that God did not make mankind in his image.

The only other logical alternative is that God does not have a moral sense and that he too, like Adam and Eve, was basically as dumb as a cow.

Could that be why God is shown as doing other immoral things in scriptures?

The two main ones that come to mind is God having his own son murdered for the forgiveness of sin when there was no real need to and the genocide of Noah’s day.

Does being in God's image mean not having a moral sense?

Regards
DL

What does in God’s image mean?

IMO....it's a metaphor. The similarity is not in structure but of life being a reflection of independence.

He created Adam & Eve without a moral sense.

No, if you take Genesis literally, God imposed instructions as rule sets to be followed. Rule sets would be that 'morality'.

I take, in God’s image, to refer to God’s and our mental image and not the physical. God does not look like us in any way. He and his form is quite alien to us.

The way you sometimes post, it appears you acknowledge the existence of God.
Is it merely an acquired affectation for debate or you hate a god that actually exists?

Genesis shows that Adam & Eve were created without the moral sense that would make them like Gods.

Non sequitur.
You need to restate that.
First, Genesis doesn't state what you claim. Adam and Eve were given a rule set ( read> imposed morality ) that they violated.
And reading your sentence, it flows to imply that not having a moral sense would make them like Gods.
The logic of your argument contradicts this aspect.
You posted> " I take, in God’s image, to refer to God’s and our mental image "
The initial mental imagery of Adam and Eve in Genesis is one of created beings existing in perfect harmony of a perfect world, also a construct by God.
The mental imagery of Adam and Eve is not one of being a blank slate. It's one of free will and consequences.

That being the case, they had to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to be in God’s mental image.

Non sequitur.

That is without a doubt a requirement to the development of a moral sense and is confirmed by God after Adam and Eve disobeyed his command to stay dumb and without a moral sense.

You should write children's books. ( just kidding, really )

If they were created in God’s image then they would have already had the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil and would therefore not have been tempted by Satan to eat of the tree of knowledge because they would have had that knowledge already. This would also mean that God was punishing them unjustly.

(sigh!)
The story lesson was about free will and consequences.
Well......the non-fundie version at least

One must conclude from these biblical facts, that God did not make mankind in his image.

Or, more likely, that your literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect because it's allegory.

The only other logical alternative is that God does not have a moral sense and that he too, like Adam and Eve, was basically as dumb as a cow.

Or your logic is all cattywompass

Could that be why God is shown as doing other immoral things in scriptures?

You've really got a stiffie going there, GIA

Does being in God's image mean not having a moral sense?

It means having free will.

 

[Panacea]

I've always felt "in god's image" was a way to explain why the Abrahamic god is described so strikingly like a human. My guess is when god was created, the only descriptor that would make much sense/impact would be a simple one. God is like us! Obviously god's not a dog, or a geranium, or butt sweat: god is a super human.



And the word cattywompass has changed my life.

 

[Greatest I am]

Stone

You are hung up on the free will that God supposedly gave A & E.

You know the myth well.

What happened the moment A & E did their will and not God's by eating from the tree of knowledge?

Explain as well if you like how commands give a moral sense.

We command computers with code all the time.
Does it somehow develop a moral sense?

God also put Satan in Eden and gave him the power to deceive the whole world including A & E.

Could they somehow not be deceived by such a powerful force?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I've always felt "in god's image" was a way to explain why the Abrahamic god is described so strikingly like a human. My guess is when god was created, the only descriptor that would make much sense/impact would be a simple one. God is like us! Obviously god's not a dog, or a geranium, or butt sweat: god is a super human.



And the word cattywompass has changed my life.

It would mine as well.


I agree with your take on God being made in our image plus all the omnis thrown in.

 

[Stone]

Stone

You are hung up on the free will that God supposedly gave A & E.

You know the myth well.

What happened the moment A & E did their will and not God's by eating from the tree of knowledge?

Explain as well if you like how commands give a moral sense.

We command computers with code all the time.
Does it somehow develop a moral sense?

God also put Satan in Eden and gave him the power to deceive the whole world including A & E.

Could they somehow not be deceived by such a powerful force?

Regards
DL

You are hung up on the free will that God supposedly gave A & E.

You know the myth well.

What happened the moment A & E did their will and not God's by eating from the tree of knowledge?

You just proved my point.
It was free will that allowed A&E to violate God's orders.

Explain as well if you like how commands give a moral sense.

Surely you don't think I accept your sophistry as logic?
God presented a rule set. Morals are rule sets of right versus wrong.
In this case, Genesis, God had the power of making that call, and did. You merely don't approve
Whether you agree with God or any morality he imposes is irrelevant to the issue of them being a 'moral code'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. The adjective moral is synonymous with "good" or "right."

We command computers with code all the time.

More sophistry.
We operate computers with coded instructions

God also put Satan in Eden and gave him the power to deceive the whole world including A & E.

Could they somehow not be deceived by such a powerful force?

In a free will scenario, yes.
Could they be fooled? Indeed. And here you are
Maybe evil isn't as logical as you think it is?
I'm not seeing any logic to evil and I'm not even a fundie

 

[darkcgi]

he wanted them to learn a moral sense that is how it is created
if his plan is perfect then that would mean he knew Adam would sin
and that he would later give man the chance to ask for forgiveness and he would give it
This introduce the Love of God.

so why not make Adam and Eve perfect so everything would be always good and jolly. Then how would man experience the things he does.
for instance if you dont know what sadness is how are you going to eperience happiness if your happy all the time how would you know you were happy if you dont know what
not being happy is.
You cannot have light without dark.
If every cookie you ever get to eat is perfect and the same but perfect
where is the fun in that wheres the variety
If he landed here on earth and showed himself and proved himself
we would want more after that and never be satisfied
it is the way it works best

 

[Stone]

Stone...........................

As much as fundamentalists seem to avoid you, you seem to avoid responding to a lot of dialog I throw your way.

I would have thought you'd have a large collection of pat answers/responses by now to fall back on.

 

[Greatest I am]

You just proved my point.
It was free will that allowed A&E to violate God's orders.



Surely you don't think I accept your sophistry as logic?
God presented a rule set. Morals are rule sets of right versus wrong.
In this case, Genesis, God had the power of making that call, and did. You merely don't approve
Whether you agree with God or any morality he imposes is irrelevant to the issue of them being a 'moral code'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals





More sophistry.
We operate computers with coded instructions



In a free will scenario, yes.
Could they be fooled? Indeed. And here you are
Maybe evil isn't as logical as you think it is?
I'm not seeing any logic to evil and I'm not even a fundie

It was God's plan from thebeginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can bedemonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucifiedfrom the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucifyJesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damnedsin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build intothe Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for aproblem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the diewas cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when therewas absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.


------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in thefall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices thatcaused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Freewill is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone wouldwant to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). Anexplanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerableto being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat aforbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the firstplace. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with anature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a responseto this problem.





Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am aGnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated.Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explainwhat I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. Theseare unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent todo evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete orcooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created.Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are eithercooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that whatChristians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have,competition, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is howthings are and should be.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

he wanted them to learn a moral sense that is how it is created
if his plan is perfect then that would mean he knew Adam would sin
and that he would later give man the chance to ask for forgiveness and he would give it
This introduce the Love of God.

so why not make Adam and Eve perfect so everything would be always good and jolly. Then how would man experience the things he does.
for instance if you dont know what sadness is how are you going to eperience happiness if your happy all the time how would you know you were happy if you dont know what
not being happy is.
You cannot have light without dark.
If every cookie you ever get to eat is perfect and the same but perfect
where is the fun in that wheres the variety
If he landed here on earth and showed himself and proved himself
we would want more after that and never be satisfied
it is the way it works best

Please read the post just above.

And something else on God's plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXoPhgTkuY&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

As much as fundamentalists seem to avoid you, you seem to avoid responding to a lot of dialog I throw your way.

I would have thought you'd have a large collection of pat answers/responses by now to fall back on.

Shit like this is why I do what I do. Get better or get used to me ignoring most of your crap.
Your psychobabble and personal garbage is just that.

Regards
DL

 

[Stone]

Shit like this is why I do what I do. Get better or get used to me ignoring most of your crap.
Your psychobabble and personal garbage is just that.

Regards
DL

I am shocked and appalled by your language as a holy man of infinite wisdom

 

[Stone]

It was God's plan from thebeginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can bedemonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucifiedfrom the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucifyJesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damnedsin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build intothe Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for aproblem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the diewas cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when therewas absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.


------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in thefall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices thatcaused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Freewill is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone wouldwant to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). Anexplanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerableto being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat aforbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the firstplace. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with anature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a responseto this problem.





Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am aGnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated.Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explainwhat I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. Theseare unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent todo evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete orcooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created.Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are eithercooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that whatChristians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have,competition, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is howthings are and should be.

Regards
DL

You keep forgetting that I'm not a fundamentalist
I've already posted that I see Genesis as allegory and the Old Testament as Jewish history .

As far as faith and science (describing reality )......the concepts seem too diverse in their nature to compare, let alone use one to disprove the other.

So your efforts are for naught in attempting a theological debate with me to prove you hate the 'Christian' God.
Like the fundamentalist, you manipulate the written word to generate a preconceived result.
Don't like the source, pick another to suit your argument......like all the videos you post which oddly seem to sometimes contradict your intent.

....we should see that whatChristians see as something to blame, evil.....

Interesting tirade, but it comes off as propaganda because you argue the absolute that all Christians are fundamentalists.

You might get more converts if you didn't present hate as a theme and instead focused on any potential benefits you have to offer.
Yeah, it is called salesmanship, but you need to consider that in a debate setting, otherwise all you're doing is proselytizing in much the argumentative manner as a fundamentalist.

 

[Stone]

It was God's plan from thebeginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can bedemonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucifiedfrom the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucifyJesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damnedsin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build intothe Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for aproblem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the diewas cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when therewas absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.


------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in thefall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices thatcaused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Freewill is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone wouldwant to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). Anexplanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerableto being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat aforbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the firstplace. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with anature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a responseto this problem.





Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am aGnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated.Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explainwhat I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. Theseare unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent todo evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete orcooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created.Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are eithercooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should see that whatChristians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have,competition, deserves a huge thanks where it belongs. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is howthings are and should be.

Regards
DL

..................................

I would have thought you'd have a large collection of pat answers/responses by now to fall back on.

http://www.debategod.org/index.php/...cellaneous-questions/8210-judas?Itemid=0#8295


http://community.beliefnet.com/go/t...ncluding_evil_iniquity.&post_num=16#516654199


http://www.debategod.org/index.php/...-badness-sake?limit=25&Itemid=0&start=25#8932



Of course you have pat answers.



Your whole post was a collage of previous replies at other web sites.


That's not debate.....

You're spamming us

 

[Minor Axis]

We are created in God's Image. I really believe this is a metaphor or early man's assumption based on wishful thinking. If you consider the possibility of spirits, and the possibility that some sensitive people can see them, and they look like humans, I can understand that, but I see no real reason why a spirit would need the appearance/physiology of a human being other than to relate to the world where the spirit previously existed in physical form.

 

[darkcgi]

it is symbolic symbolism its how we speak write and communicate